Another kind of pond question

Since I may actually see open water in the next few days, I think that
the time has come to broach a somewhat different kind of pond question
than is the norm on this group.

In late 2004, I moved from a high rise condo building on the lakefront
in Chicago to 5.5 acres in rural Minnesota. One of the features on my
property is a pond. It's about 3/4 acre, pear shaped, and 17 feet at
its deepest. This is a "natural" pond; I put "natural" in quotes
because it was actually dug (in the mid 1970s), but it has no lining,
pumps, aerators, or any of the other attributes that often turn up in
discussion here. In other words, I don't think it's your "normal"
rec.ponds pond. [Yes, I know I'm in newsgroup rec.ponds.moderated.]

This pond is the fisherman's dream, if the fisherman happens to be about
five years old. Drop a hook in the water, and you've got a fish in less
than a minute. Bait optional. Take the fish off the hook and throw it
back, repeat, and you would swear that you've caught the same fish.
They're sunfish, I'm told, 6-18 inches in length. It's obvious even to
me that the pond is overpopulated with small fish.

I've not done anything much to the pond. I've had plenty to keep me
busy on the property since I've lived here. My pond maintenance has
been limited to using chemicals to reduce algae growth.

I don't know squat about ponds. Flame me if you must; I'll simply
ignore those. I'm not proud of not knowing about how to handle the
pond, but I'm not ashamed of it either. There are many things to learn
when you move from a downtown condo to a rural house; I've learned a lot
of them, but nothing about the pond. If you would like lessons in
keeping bees, growing vegetables, or brewing beer I'd be happy to help.

So, those of you who know something about the kind of ecosystem I have,
what would you suggest? My inclination is that I need to introduce some
more-aggressive fish that will control the population of the small
sunfish. It would be nice if they could live through the Minnesota
winter like the sunfish do. I'm willing to listen to any advice. So
far the pond has taken care of itself; I'm willing to weigh in only if
there's some likelihood that I'll improve things. Otherwise, Mother
Nature has been doing a rather admirable job.

It's likely that I've left out some crucial information that you need to
understand my situation, so please ask and I'll do the best to provide it.



Steve Bonine

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 21:17:51 CST, Steve Bonine <> wrote:

>Since I may actually see open water in the next few days, I think that
>the time has come to broach a somewhat different kind of pond question
>than is the norm on this group.
>
>In late 2004, I moved from a high rise condo building on the lakefront
>in Chicago to 5.5 acres in rural Minnesota. One of the features on my
>property is a pond. It's about 3/4 acre, pear shaped, and 17 feet at
>its deepest. This is a "natural" pond; I put "natural" in quotes
>because it was actually dug (in the mid 1970s), but it has no lining,
>pumps, aerators, or any of the other attributes that often turn up in
>discussion here. In other words, I don't think it's your "normal"
>rec.ponds pond. [Yes, I know I'm in newsgroup rec.ponds.moderated.]
>
>This pond is the fisherman's dream, if the fisherman happens to be about
>five years old. Drop a hook in the water, and you've got a fish in less
>than a minute. Bait optional. Take the fish off the hook and throw it
>back, repeat, and you would swear that you've caught the same fish.
>They're sunfish, I'm told, 6-18 inches in length. It's obvious even to
>me that the pond is overpopulated with small fish.
>
>I've not done anything much to the pond. I've had plenty to keep me
>busy on the property since I've lived here. My pond maintenance has
>been limited to using chemicals to reduce algae growth.
>
>I don't know squat about ponds. Flame me if you must; I'll simply
>ignore those. I'm not proud of not knowing about how to handle the
>pond, but I'm not ashamed of it either. There are many things to learn
>when you move from a downtown condo to a rural house; I've learned a lot
>of them, but nothing about the pond. If you would like lessons in
>keeping bees, growing vegetables, or brewing beer I'd be happy to help.
>
>So, those of you who know something about the kind of ecosystem I have,
>what would you suggest? My inclination is that I need to introduce some
>more-aggressive fish that will control the population of the small
>sunfish. It would be nice if they could live through the Minnesota
>winter like the sunfish do. I'm willing to listen to any advice. So
>far the pond has taken care of itself; I'm willing to weigh in only if
>there's some likelihood that I'll improve things. Otherwise, Mother
>Nature has been doing a rather admirable job.
>
>It's likely that I've left out some crucial information that you need to
>understand my situation, so please ask and I'll do the best to provide it.

Hi Steve,
It depends on what kind of a pond you want it to be. If you want
a typical "natural" pond for good fishing, I would buy or catch some
bass and put them in. They would reduce the sunfish population very
quickly.
On the other hand, if you have small children around that like to
fish, then keeping a large sunfish population is the answer. I think
a sunfish is probably the most common "first fish" ever caught by
most people. (I know it was mine -bamboo pole with a worm and
bobber. Boy was I a proud 7 or 8-year old.!)

I have a large "natural" pond, dug by an excavator. No liner, up
to 12-15 feet deep in some spots. It has a mix of sunfish, bass,
perch, goldfish, a few koi, and a couple I have never identified..
I'm putting in a gazebo, connected by a 20' bridge to the mainland.
3 big pumps, a waterfall, and an artificial creek about 70' long.
And always planning new ideas that may or may not ever come to pass.

In other words my pond is split-personality. Little bit farm,
little bit show, but mostly just a quiet place to relax and enjoy.

ron schompert,
speaking for myself,
not as rpm proponent

On Sat, 24 Mar 2007 21:17:51 CST, Steve Bonine <> wrote:

>Since I may actually see open water in the next few days, I think that
>the time has come to broach a somewhat different kind of pond question
>than is the norm on this group.
>
>In late 2004, I moved from a high rise condo building on the lakefront
>in Chicago to 5.5 acres in rural Minnesota. One of the features on my
>property is a pond. It's about 3/4 acre, pear shaped, and 17 feet at
>its deepest. This is a "natural" pond; I put "natural" in quotes
>because it was actually dug (in the mid 1970s), but it has no lining,
>pumps, aerators, or any of the other attributes that often turn up in
>discussion here. In other words, I don't think it's your "normal"
>rec.ponds pond. [Yes, I know I'm in newsgroup rec.ponds.moderated.]

No problem. Turns out there are a lot of us that have natural
(unlined) ponds to fuss with. I live down in northern Florida, and
now find myself with three of the things to take care of, though none
as deep as yours.

>This pond is the fisherman's dream, if the fisherman happens to be about
>five years old. Drop a hook in the water, and you've got a fish in less
>than a minute. Bait optional. Take the fish off the hook and throw it
>back, repeat, and you would swear that you've caught the same fish.
>They're sunfish, I'm told, 6-18 inches in length. It's obvious even to
>me that the pond is overpopulated with small fish.

I used to have fish too, and turtles. Then an alligator moved in, and
I haven't seen the turtles or the fish since. It probably wouldn't be
a good solution to your fish problem, however.

>I've not done anything much to the pond. I've had plenty to keep me
>busy on the property since I've lived here. My pond maintenance has
>been limited to using chemicals to reduce algae growth.

I have to admit I'm rather anti-chemical, especially when it comes to
groundwater. I've got friends who dive and crawl in that stuff.

>I don't know squat about ponds. Flame me if you must; I'll simply
>ignore those. I'm not proud of not knowing about how to handle the
>pond, but I'm not ashamed of it either. There are many things to learn
>when you move from a downtown condo to a rural house; I've learned a lot
>of them, but nothing about the pond. If you would like lessons in
>keeping bees, growing vegetables, or brewing beer I'd be happy to help.

As for the beer, I'd rather drink it than brew it, I have little use
for vegetables, and the bees sound like way too much work for me.

>So, those of you who know something about the kind of ecosystem I have,
>what would you suggest? My inclination is that I need to introduce some
>more-aggressive fish that will control the population of the small
>sunfish. It would be nice if they could live through the Minnesota
>winter like the sunfish do. I'm willing to listen to any advice. So
>far the pond has taken care of itself; I'm willing to weigh in only if
>there's some likelihood that I'll improve things. Otherwise, Mother
>Nature has been doing a rather admirable job.

I know nothing about what lives in places where the water gets hard in
the winter, but I do have some peculiar ideas about weed control.

>It's likely that I've left out some crucial information that you need to
>understand my situation, so please ask and I'll do the best to provide it.

What color car do you drive?
--
Galen Hekhuis
Illiterate? Write for FREE help

wrote:

> It depends on what kind of a pond you want it to be. If you want
> a typical "natural" pond for good fishing, I would buy or catch some
> bass and put them in. They would reduce the sunfish population very
> quickly.

I would like to have a bit more diversity in the pond than I have now.
I have considered that acquiring some kind of fish might be the way to
achieve that. But I still have questions. How many bass, what size?
Any suggestions on where to obtain them? Will they kill off all the
sunfish, so that instead of having no diversity because it's 100%
sunfish will I have no diversity because of 100% bass? Will they
survive the winter, or will I need to re-stock each spring?

What about fish other than bass?

> On the other hand, if you have small children around that like to
> fish, then keeping a large sunfish population is the answer. I think
> a sunfish is probably the most common "first fish" ever caught by
> most people. (I know it was mine -bamboo pole with a worm and
> bobber. Boy was I a proud 7 or 8-year old.!)

Yeah, it's a hoot to watch the kids fish in the pond. I have a niece
that's high school age, and she and her friends enjoy the pond, too.

What I would like to end up with is some compromise between what I have
now, with tiny fish but a lot of them, and instead have "the best of
both worlds". I am not sure that's possible in a pond this size.

> I have a large "natural" pond, dug by an excavator. No liner, up
> to 12-15 feet deep in some spots. It has a mix of sunfish, bass,
> perch, goldfish, a few koi, and a couple I have never identified..

This sounds like what I'm looking for. Do these fish live together with
minimal problems? Are there particular varieties that I should stay
away from?

> I'm putting in a gazebo, connected by a 20' bridge to the mainland.
> 3 big pumps, a waterfall, and an artificial creek about 70' long.
> And always planning new ideas that may or may not ever come to pass.

I doubt I will ever get anywhere near that industrious.

> In other words my pond is split-personality. Little bit farm,
> little bit show, but mostly just a quiet place to relax and enjoy.

Right. And I have another goal, which is not to spend huge amounts of
time building and maintaining.

Thanks for the advice.

PS to Galen, related to the next article in the thread: Dark brown.

On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 08:44:29 CST, Steve Bonine <> wrote:

> wrote:
>
>> It depends on what kind of a pond you want it to be. If you want
>> a typical "natural" pond for good fishing, I would buy or catch some
>> bass and put them in. They would reduce the sunfish population very
>> quickly.
>
>I would like to have a bit more diversity in the pond than I have now.
>I have considered that acquiring some kind of fish might be the way to
>achieve that. But I still have questions. How many bass, what size?
>Any suggestions on where to obtain them? Will they kill off all the
>sunfish, so that instead of having no diversity because it's 100%
>sunfish will I have no diversity because of 100% bass? Will they
>survive the winter, or will I need to re-stock each spring?
>
>What about fish other than bass?
>
>> On the other hand, if you have small children around that like to
>> fish, then keeping a large sunfish population is the answer. I think
>> a sunfish is probably the most common "first fish" ever caught by
>> most people. (I know it was mine -bamboo pole with a worm and
>> bobber. Boy was I a proud 7 or 8-year old.!)
>
>Yeah, it's a hoot to watch the kids fish in the pond. I have a niece
>that's high school age, and she and her friends enjoy the pond, too.
>
>What I would like to end up with is some compromise between what I have
>now, with tiny fish but a lot of them, and instead have "the best of
>both worlds". I am not sure that's possible in a pond this size.
>
>> I have a large "natural" pond, dug by an excavator. No liner, up
>> to 12-15 feet deep in some spots. It has a mix of sunfish, bass,
>> perch, goldfish, a few koi, and a couple I have never identified..
>
>This sounds like what I'm looking for. Do these fish live together with
>minimal problems? Are there particular varieties that I should stay
>away from?
>
>> I'm putting in a gazebo, connected by a 20' bridge to the mainland.
>> 3 big pumps, a waterfall, and an artificial creek about 70' long.
>> And always planning new ideas that may or may not ever come to pass.
>
>I doubt I will ever get anywhere near that industrious.
>
>> In other words my pond is split-personality. Little bit farm,
>> little bit show, but mostly just a quiet place to relax and enjoy.
>
>Right. And I have another goal, which is not to spend huge amounts of
>time building and maintaining.
>
>Thanks for the advice.
>
>PS to Galen, related to the next article in the thread: Dark brown.


Hi again, Steve,

If your pond is 1/2 to 3/4 acre, and up to 17' deep, there should
be no problem in having the fish survive the winter.
Here's how I got my fish. I am lucky enough that the famous NY
State Erie Canal is less than 100 feet from my pond.
I used a minnow net with bread to catch all kinds of assorted
small fish, and then I just threw them into the pond. I fished at the
canal, and over a couple years caught quite a few bass. They also got
thrown into the pond. Neighbors gave me goldfish & koi and they got
thrown in as well. I don't feed the fish, I let them fend for
themselves, with nature taking its course.
I've found that the fish population eventually reaches a balance;
no one species dominates the rest. The bass keep the sunfish in
check, but also eat bugs, crickets, small frogs, etc. The perch are
also aggressive, even eating their own young. I also have a few plain
carp (distantly related to goldfish & koi, I believe). They clean up
everything.
The result is a good mixture, with no special favoritism to any
one species.
My pond freezes over in the winter, and some fish don't survive,
but others do, and the "balance" seems to continue every year.

My water is the "natural brown & green", not the crystal clear
that a lot of hobbyists strive for. I think its impossible to do that
with a big pond.
Yet the gazebo, waterfall, and stream add an extra touch so that
its not just a farm pond. Its a definite hybrid. (Had to run 450'
of electric out to it. That cost $$).

ron

wrote:



> Here's how I got my fish. I am lucky enough that the famous NY
> State Erie Canal is less than 100 feet from my pond.
> I used a minnow net with bread to catch all kinds of assorted
> small fish, and then I just threw them into the pond. I fished at the
> canal, and over a couple years caught quite a few bass. They also got
> thrown into the pond.

Just one thing that I would advise you to do is to check out whether
this is allowed in the area where you live. Over here in the UK it is
illegal to take some creatures out of their natural habitat or any
creatures out of a certain location - You need to make sure that you
have covered all bases....

Gill

On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 10:00:47 CST, wrote:

> If your pond is 1/2 to 3/4 acre, and up to 17' deep, there should
>be no problem in having the fish survive the winter.
> Here's how I got my fish. I am lucky enough that the famous NY
>State Erie Canal is less than 100 feet from my pond.
> I used a minnow net with bread to catch all kinds of assorted
>small fish, and then I just threw them into the pond. I fished at the
>canal, and over a couple years caught quite a few bass. They also got
>thrown into the pond. Neighbors gave me goldfish & koi and they got
>thrown in as well. I don't feed the fish, I let them fend for
>themselves, with nature taking its course.> ron

Ron, how often do you see a goldfish or a koi went out by the pond? ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State

On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 12:58:39 CST, ~ jan <>
wrote:

>On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 10:00:47 CST, wrote:
>
>> If your pond is 1/2 to 3/4 acre, and up to 17' deep, there should
>>be no problem in having the fish survive the winter.
>> Here's how I got my fish. I am lucky enough that the famous NY
>>State Erie Canal is less than 100 feet from my pond.
>> I used a minnow net with bread to catch all kinds of assorted
>>small fish, and then I just threw them into the pond. I fished at the
>>canal, and over a couple years caught quite a few bass. They also got
>>thrown into the pond. Neighbors gave me goldfish & koi and they got
>>thrown in as well. I don't feed the fish, I let them fend for
>>themselves, with nature taking its course.> ron
>
>Ron, how often do you see a goldfish or a koi went out by the pond? ~ jan
>------------
>Zone 7a, SE Washington State

I see them occasionally, the goldfish more than the koi. I've never
seen any baby koi. They probably get eaten. The wild fish I only
see very occasionally, in the more shallow areas, when the water is
somewhat clear.
I understand that koi and goldfish are quite teachable, so maybe
if I tried feeding them, I could get better views of them. I don't
know if the wild fish would also come up for free dinners.
I haven't seen any yet this year. There is still a partial ice cover
on the pond, but it should be gone in another couple days.

I've got a couple more goldfish to add to the pond later this
spring. They came courtesy of my uncle a month or so ago.. They are
both 4-5 " long and are currently in an aquarium overlooking my
computer.

ron

<> wrote in message
news:...
> I understand that koi and goldfish are quite teachable, so maybe
> if I tried feeding them, I could get better views of them. I don't
> know if the wild fish would also come up for free dinners.
========================
If they eat what you're feeding the koi and goldfish, then yes, they'll come
when you feed the others.
--
RM....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
rec.ponder since late 1996.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Zone 6. USA
~~~~ }<((((*> ~~~ }<{{{{(ö>

On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 14:49:07 CST, wrote:

>On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 12:58:39 CST, ~ jan <>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 10:00:47 CST, wrote:
>>
>>> If your pond is 1/2 to 3/4 acre, and up to 17' deep, there should
>>>be no problem in having the fish survive the winter.
>>> Here's how I got my fish. I am lucky enough that the famous NY
>>>State Erie Canal is less than 100 feet from my pond.
>>> I used a minnow net with bread to catch all kinds of assorted
>>>small fish, and then I just threw them into the pond. I fished at the
>>>canal, and over a couple years caught quite a few bass. They also got
>>>thrown into the pond. Neighbors gave me goldfish & koi and they got
>>>thrown in as well. I don't feed the fish, I let them fend for
>>>themselves, with nature taking its course.> ron
>>
>>Ron, how often do you see a goldfish or a koi went out by the pond? ~ jan
>>------------
>>Zone 7a, SE Washington State
>
>I see them occasionally, the goldfish more than the koi. I've never
>seen any baby koi. They probably get eaten. The wild fish I only
>see very occasionally, in the more shallow areas, when the water is
>somewhat clear.
> I understand that koi and goldfish are quite teachable, so maybe
>if I tried feeding them, I could get better views of them. I don't
>know if the wild fish would also come up for free dinners.
>I haven't seen any yet this year. There is still a partial ice cover
>on the pond, but it should be gone in another couple days.
>
> I've got a couple more goldfish to add to the pond later this
>spring. They came courtesy of my uncle a month or so ago.. They are
>both 4-5 " long and are currently in an aquarium overlooking my
>computer.
>
> ron

Disaster!

I just went out to check my pond, and there was a major fish
kill.
The fish have survived the last couple winters, but apparently
not this time.
I found 2 dead bass, a carp, several frogs, a bullhead, 2
sunfish and a perch (?). Didn't find any goldfish or koi. More dead
fish may show up later, or maybe the rest survived.

One of the bass was the biggest largemouth I have ever seen.
22-23" long and fat as a turkey the day before thanksgiving. He was
starting to decay so I didn't pick him up to weigh him. His mouth was
big enough to swallow a medium size fish whole.

Looks like next year I'm going to have to keep a hole in the ice.
Never had to in the past.

ron