Jim & Phyllis: Can you share other info about your trip?

Hi Jim & Phyllis,

Setting aside the hunting issue, can you tell us more about
other aspects/events of your trip to Africa?
I've been to Israel and Egypt several times. The first time was
with an official "tour group" where we spent the most time getting
on and off busses.
The other times I went on my own, with no set plans,
itineraries, or pre-booked places to stay. On my first trip alone,
Israeli security questioned me for almost 3 hours at JFK, releasing me
to go just minutes before the flight took off. (The doors were even
closed and had to be re-opened.)


How was your trip planned? Have you been before? What else did
you get to see or do?

I wish I could still travel. I got very, very sick in Israel on
my last trip, and haven't gotten better since.

ron



rons515@localnet.com

Hi Ron,

This was our first trip to Africa. I went to speak to church folk
about crisis, repeated traume and grief and to hunt on the ranches of
a person I know over here. If you are looking for personal treatment
on safari, try Sofala Safaris!

Chriches: The Afrikaaner churches in South Africa have been facing
some major changes with the end tof apartheid. They have not had
training in the neurobiology and psychology of crisis trauma and
grief. It was valuable to be of help there.

Afrikaaners: We also went to Johannesburg, Pretoria and the Vortrekker
monument. The Vortrekkers were the Dutch who left Cape Colonoy to get
away from British rule. They made unbelievable journeys over the
veldt and the mountains. Rather like our pioneers. What I did not
know was that they had actually made treaties with the African tribes
(at somewhat better rates than our purchase of Manhattan).

Racial rransition: The nation is in a real time of transition.
Mandela and co really took steps to make it an easier transition.
They still have a huge disparity between the educated blacks and the
non-educated blacks. Grinding poverty. The change of leadership has
also meant many people with less-than-full qualifications have
suddenly come to positions of major responsibility...with serious
consequences. It looks to me as though it will take a generaltion or
more to make any substantial progress toward an integrated state.

The churches are working at bridging the racial and educational gaps,
but it is hard.

The nation is really beautiful! Various kinds of terrain ranging from
mountains to veldt to bush to forrest. It would be fun just to travel
around.

Game: People criticize hunting, but it is really the deliverance of
much of South Africa's game. Outside the national parks like Kruger,
the wildlife has been slaughtered as cities and farms advance. Major
portions of the nation have been fenced as private hunting land for
safaris. These are generally much larger than the normal range of the
animals in them, so the animals don't even think much of the fences
(think 6,000-50,000 acres). Hunting in them is really 'fair chase'
hunting. The PAID hunting has allowed many species to thrive in
places where they would otherwise be extinct. The land owners are
hugely committed to carrying as many animals as they reasonably can
and to culling the herds.

The animals I took, for instance, fit into the maintaining-healthy-
density category. If they do not take some off, they will face
illness from overpopulation and face one species putting too much
pressure on others. Selective hunting serves the animals. No hunting
reservations; no game. With hunting reservations, culling is a must.

If the country depended on national parks, the game species would
simply be extinct in most of South Africa. Think about the number of
elk left in the Eastern or Souther USA. NONE. If we had 30,000 acres
hunting preserves, we could have large elk populations still.

I look forward to returning.

Jim

Sounds like a fascinating trip and will
be interesting to see if any changes have
taken place when you get to go back.
Thanks for the report!

k :-)

In article <. com>,
Phyllis and Jim <> wrote:
as many animals as they reasonably can
> and to culling the herds.
>
> The animals I took, for instance, fit into the maintaining-healthy-
> density category. If they do not take some off, they will face
> illness from overpopulation and face one species putting too much
> pressure on others. Selective hunting serves the animals. No hunting
> reservations; no game. With hunting reservations, culling is a must.
>
> If the country depended on national parks, the game species would
> simply be extinct in most of South Africa. Think about the number of
> elk left in the Eastern or Souther USA. NONE. If we had 30,000 acres
> hunting preserves, we could have large elk populations still.
>
> I look forward to returning.
>
> Jim

Some of us are not comfortable with the idea of killing for sport.

You should carry this topic on privately, or in a hunting group. Same
with religion and politics.

--
To reply by email, remove the word "space"

I concur that we do not want to have our pond forum a general
discussion forum, or overloaded by conflict or disturbing topics or OT
debates.

Kurt, I do not want to be offensive to you and have picked up some of
the detailed discussions on other fora where such topics are directly
on topic.

I would also hate to have the controversy over hunting, an incidental
byproduct of comments on the Africa trip, undercut the friendly OT
posts that have been so valuable to our community over the years.

Here, in response to various requests, are links to album two versions
of our trip. One includes people and scenery. The other includes
harvested game. Both are clearly marked. Visit them or don't at your
pleasure.

Safari pictures with scenery and people but no harvested game
http://picasaweb.google.com/mississi...risSceneryOnly

Safari pictures with harvested game
http://picasaweb.google.com/mississi...hHarvestedGame
Jim

Phyllis and Jim wrote:
> I concur that we do not want to have our pond forum a general
> discussion forum, or overloaded by conflict or disturbing topics or OT
> debates.

This post took me a while to compose, mostly because I want to generate
the right 'tone' (not always easy to do using written, non-graphical media).

I know I'm a newbie (to this group), but I am bothered by the desire for
having to be ultra PC. For example, I am on this group because I am in
the very beginning stages of designing and digging my first pond. The
purpose of this pond is primarily for the training of retrievers for
hunting waterfowl. Related to that is that I am a member of a local
retriever club; some of whom have a whole set of ponds for training dogs
- all with different designs and dimensions for teaching dogs different
concepts of making them a better hunting companion. I might even be
inclined to mention the pond design diagrams produced by Rex Carr
(considered by many to be the 'Bible of retriever training pond design').


Which means, I'm between a rock and a hard place. It would appear that
some are bothered by me being a hunter. But for me, it is the reason
for having a pond. Is it possible for me to participate here, with some
of my messages talking about hunting (as it relates to the pond),
without offending some?


--

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Chris Barnes AOL IM: CNBarnes
Yahoo IM: chrisnbarnes
"Usenet really is all about standing around and hitting the ground
with clubs, on a spot where many years earlier a dead horse lay."

Chris Barnes <> wrote:
> Phyllis and Jim wrote:
> > [ . . . ]
> I know I'm a newbie (to this group), [ . . . ]I might even be
> inclined to mention the pond design diagrams produced by Rex Carr.
> [ . . . ]Is it possible for me to participate here, with some
> of my messages talking about hunting (as it relates to the pond),
> without offending some?

Hi Chris,

I, for one, won't be offended. Can you post a URL for Rex Carr's pond
design diagrams? Thanks, welcome and good ponding!

--
Nick. Support severely wounded and disabled Veterans and their families!

Thank a Veteran and Support Our Troops. You are not forgotten. Thanks ! ! !
~Semper Fi~

"Chris Barnes" <> wrote in message
news:f5glic$ga4$...

> Which means, I'm between a rock and a hard place. It would appear that
> some are bothered by me being a hunter. But for me, it is the reason for
> having a pond. Is it possible for me to participate here, with some of my
> messages talking about hunting (as it relates to the pond), without
> offending some?

Is there some reason why you have to discuss hunting when discussing your
pond design and workings? I can;t think of any reason why the topic needs to
even be brought up.

One of the biggest draws to owning a pond is to celebrate wildlife, and the
outdoors, and as you could easily see, hunting is contrary to the majority
or people's desires to own a pond.

--
Gareee
(Gary Tabar Jr.)

most people on the list build/have ponds for fish and/or wildlife and
plants. it would seem your ponds are more of an engineering problem
since I cant imagine that dog training and fish/plants are compatible.
most of us are trying very hard to train our dogs to stay out of the
pond. so I guess I dont understand what you really want or expect to
get from this group. and yes, I am not happy about discussions which
involve killing animals unless it is mercy euthanasia.

INgrid

>On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 18:58:07 CST, "Gareee©" <gareee-> wrote:

>> Which means, I'm between a rock and a hard place. It would appear that
>> some are bothered by me being a hunter. But for me, it is the reason for
>> having a pond. Is it possible for me to participate here, with some of my
>> messages talking about hunting (as it relates to the pond), without
>> offending some?
>
>Is there some reason why you have to discuss hunting when discussing your
>pond design and workings? I can;t think of any reason why the topic needs to
>even be brought up.

Agree. Speaking for myself only, the mention of hunting, using a pond to
train hunting dogs... won't offend me. Going into detail, verbally or
visually of the hunt, is a bit much for a ponding forum.

Anyone who has ever had their pond hit by a raccoon would probably more
than welcome going on that type of hunt. ;-) ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us