Anoxic filters?

Discussion in 'DIY - Do It Yourself' started by JohnHuff, Mar 13, 2014.

  1. JohnHuff

    JohnHuff Friends call me Dr. Sir John Huff

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    I've been reading up on this today. Seems it's as simple as filled a basket with kitty litter and leaving it in a corner with low flow. So, has anyone tried it?
    JohnHuff, Mar 13, 2014
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  2. JohnHuff

    Dave's pond Indiana

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    Where did you find this type of filter?
    Dave's pond Indiana, Mar 13, 2014
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  3. JohnHuff

    JohnHuff Friends call me Dr. Sir John Huff

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    JohnHuff, Mar 13, 2014
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  4. JohnHuff

    j.w I Love my Goldies

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    Some of us here have been using kitty litter as soil media for our plants but never ran a tube of water through it to use as a filter. You can buy the 100% clay cat litter at Walmart for really cheap in a big 25 lb bag called Special Kitty cat litter. Also here is info I found yrs ago on using cat litter:
    http://www.nfkc.info/Cat Litter.htm
    j.w, Mar 13, 2014
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  5. JohnHuff

    koiguy1969 GIGGETY-GIGGETY!!

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    koiguy1969, Mar 13, 2014
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  6. JohnHuff

    crsublette coyotes call me Charles

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    crsublette, Mar 14, 2014
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  7. JohnHuff

    crsublette coyotes call me Charles

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    I think the principles of the system are sound so I have no good reason to denounce it even though I gave Professor Novak a very hard time about it.

    Kitty litter is just a sterile filler. Laterite is where the magic resides. It would best if you just filled the baskets with Laterite, but this would be expensive hence the use of the correct type of kitty litter, such as shown in the thread Clay Kitty litter, what brand?

    You got the jest of it. Simply fill up the basket and put it anywhere in the pond. Supposedly, Professor Novak has "research" that suggest optimal basket dimensions.

    Personally, I think the Anoxic system is perfect for explaining how to effectively install pond plants and gives an alternative view of building a different type of "bog", that is in the loosest usage of the term.

    For a full filtration system, then I would build it like an E.R.I.C. system (and a video of the ERIC), except use the Anoxic pots instead of the foam pads.
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2014
    crsublette, Mar 14, 2014
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  8. JohnHuff

    crsublette coyotes call me Charles

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    As a quick aside, Manky Sanke is a very interesting fellow to follow through his website at Manky Sanke and he posts at koimag forum with his name as his forum handle.
    crsublette, Mar 14, 2014
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  9. JohnHuff

    Priscilla

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    Seriously, every time I'm on this site - boom, something new!

    I'm just basically going with a little bit of every filter. Hopefully I can't go wrong with this method, or can I??

    I've got the bought pressure flo with UV and bio balls that no one on this site likes. I have loads of plants in the pond. Collecting materials for a trickle/shower filter and right now, just decided to add some kittie litter instead of dirt for my pond lilies.

    I want more fish, so I want to be sure my filter/s can handle them! Plus my Dad is a chronic over feeder. It gives him joy, what am I to say? - hope Addie doesn't read that - she hates the overfeeding - I'll just keep vamping up the filter.

    If that's wrong, then I don't want to be right ....... :p
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2014
    Priscilla, Mar 14, 2014
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  10. JohnHuff

    JohnHuff Friends call me Dr. Sir John Huff

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    Thanks for the links, fellas!

    After reading a few of them, I think the gist of it is "anoxic", which is between a lot of O2 and no O2. It's supposed to draw NH3 in and it's supposed to convert to N2, bypassing the N04 stage. All good, except that it's one basket per (large) koi, which means a lot of baskets.

    I don't think I mind trying one basket of the stuff. I also learned from the links that the shower filter is supposed to gas off NH3 and not NO4 as I thought, which makes sense since NH3 is a gas and NO4 isn't.

    I can see why people don't want to do it for many reasons (area, tradition, etc.)

    BTW, I've seen many variations of the ERIC system and I don't even think it's the best one. I was also surprised to see in my internet travels of this afternoon that the UK has a lot more commercially made filter choices than we do. Our (US) selection is like a baby's compared to that of the UK.
    JohnHuff, Mar 14, 2014
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  11. JohnHuff

    addy1 water gardener / gold fish and shubunkins Moderator

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    laughing priscilla, feed as much as you want to............. I am a casual pond keeper, the fish get fed at a low level just to keep the babies produced lower. they eat the eggs up

    I use kitty litter for my lilies. So usually have 10-15 pots of kitty litter in my pond. maybe by chance I have made a sort of anoxic filter. Any plants in my pond are planted in kitty litter. The fish have managed to toss a bunch onto the bottom of the pond so the bottom of my pond is a sort of anoxic filter. I did notice a bunch of kitty litter in the deep end. Where the kitty litter was layering the bottom there was very little muck, the litter looked the white gray color it is all summer, never got covered up with muck. Just an interesting observation.
    addy1, Mar 14, 2014
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  12. JohnHuff

    Dave 54

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    it's such a shame that Dr Kevin Novak wasnt given a good reception on this site when he came over from KKU after that site lost it's data on the Anoxic system.
    John it's a mixture of non scente kitty litter and laterite, a system has so many baskets equal to its gallonage
    We would have had miles ahead by now , why havent we still got him ?
    Certain members, decided to take him to task and lets say were nt too nice to the chap.....
    Perhaps we should ask him to come back again, sadly however I doubt he'd say yes after that folks, but I could if you wish ask him, when we get the new monitor for the main PC which should be next tuesday ?
    So as I can ge into my address book.and send him an email , its up to
    you guys though ?


    Dave
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2014
    Dave 54, Mar 14, 2014
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  13. JohnHuff

    crsublette coyotes call me Charles

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    He got a pleasant reception here, that is until he flipped out since he does not have a sense of humor and did not like being challenged. It is just not this forum... Many other forums here in the US of A. Folk here in the US of A don't like it when inventors "talk them self into a big deal" while the inventor is labeling others to be fools for not outright accepting their hypothesis. After Novak lost all of his forum contributions a second time, that is when KKU went permanently offline due to money issues, I doubt Novak will be coming back to the forum scene unless it is to ThemThereKoyas, which it is quite odd that "guest" viewing of their forum has been removed since the change of ownership (and is not surprising considering who the new owner is now, whom is not much different than Mr. Novak).

    In that thread that I created, which drew him in and I was quite gracious for his participation, I've said all that needs to be said from my perspective and a simple reference to that thread is a quite adequate testimonial for me.
    crsublette, Mar 14, 2014
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  14. JohnHuff

    crsublette coyotes call me Charles

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    Yeah, that is the essential gist of the anoxic filter. The chemicals are essentially drawn in to the medium due to electrochemical energies so to be processed by the microorganisms. There still will be nitrates produced due to the layers exposed to higher oxygen levels, but some of this nitrate will be pulled into the anoxic layers so to be converted into molecular nitrogen by various anoxic microorganisms.

    In the context of the shower (high flow) wet/dry filters, the notion that there is degassing of ammonia out of water is only applicable if the pH is quite high, that is near 8.5 or higher due to the higher dominance of ammonia (NH3). However, even at lower pH, where there is a higher dominance of ammonium (NH4+), there is still some ammonia that is available to be degassed out of the water. At lower pHs, it is believed that there are specialized aerobic microorganisms to be the reason of how wet/dry filters function.

    The distinction between the function of wet/dry filters and the anoxic filter is not great, except for differences in area footprint and equipment requirements and performance. I have not yet seen anyone's anoxic filter reduce ammonia presence and complete the nitrification within 6 days, under optimal conditions, as has been accomplished by properly built shower (high flow) wet/dry filters.

    In the context of the many ERIC variations, Waddington, that is the creator of the ERIC, was first all about DIY'n filters before he become "that ERIC guy" so to prove the commercially made filters were not needed for hobbyists, that is until Waddington was persuaded by the big paycheck from the commercial sector, which is quite fine.
    crsublette, Mar 14, 2014
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  15. JohnHuff

    Dave 54

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    Ah the eric filter yes its world famous , I do from time to time go over to themthrerekoyas just for an update but prefare Manke Sanke's site , Syd and I go back many years water is Syd's area of expetice and he rates the anoxic system .
    I think Kevin saw his system as a threat to the commercial filter which when you think about it , it is.......
    Which might explain him not wanting to publish his results , who nows ?

    Dave
    Dave 54, Mar 14, 2014
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  16. JohnHuff

    crsublette coyotes call me Charles

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    His system is no more of a threat to the "commercial filter industry" than the ERIC filter and the other DIY'd wet/dry filters that are actually commercially sold.

    The Anoxic system simply clarifies a system in the proper usage of laterite clay and other clay products in the pond context. Also, laterite is the main required component in the anoxic baskets.

    Laterite clay has been around for a long time and its benefits are quite known in the aquarium industry and especially quite well known in the denitrification arena. Laterite was created for this exact purpose, that is to be a material to electrochemically pull cationic compounds like ammonium and is quite rich in trace minerals and allows excellent microorganism adhesion, so plants and microorganisms can thrive quite well and have quick access to the proper compounds. Laterite is known to actually bind ammonium to the medium, that is then available to plant roots and microorganisms, so to also help reduce ammonia test results; again, this is part of the reason why laterite was created in the aquarium industry. The difference between Laterite clay and other cooked clay products, such as kitty litter, is the number of impurities that diminishes the negative charge of the clay. Laterite clay is known to have the fewest of the impurities so that the clay's negative charge is diminished very little by other positively charged minerals. This is explained quite well and into detail, along with citations, in the article on the The Krib, titled Everything You Want To Know About Laterite.

    However, professor Novak attempts to disregard laterite's well documented ionic impact on compounds by stating, "has no bearing or reinforcement of the cores magnetism or for that matter the clays crystalline structural electrical charge of diffusion whatsoever." (Novak, 14 January 2014, thank you for devoting so many years of passion, time and effort in bringing light to anoxic filtration). Also, in this exchange, he also attempts to take the ERIC to task in comparing the Anoxic system to the ERIC, which I imagine the folk at ThemThereKoyas have a few words to say.

    Here is an exact quote made by Dr. Novak, from an article in his blog website, "The Anoxic Filters BCB’ has a higher good bacteria count than what is expected, but the utilization of the special facultative bacteria in question could be better optimally if the filter was reengineered to do so. However, to do this would compromise the systems inexpensiveness to the hobbyist and then other conventional filters would become the better choice." Wha what... I thought the anoxic filtration was the "holy grail" of filtration...

    But... I guess I am just sharing this information because I am part of "too many hobbyists that would rather not let you know about the AFS because of ignorance and prejudice opinions" (Novak, 19 February 2014, if you think its easy to get the word out)

    I would actually place a thin layer of calcium carbonate flakes on top of the baskets so to help out the aerobic microorganisms that reside on the top layer.


    I think professor Novak is over playing his hand.

    Once he can cite studies that show the efficacy of it in the aquaculture industry, as has been done with polygeyser bead filters and other filtration technologies, then Novak will have the proper authority to claim he has made the "holy grail of filtration".


    Novak is simply taking what is already scientifically known, repackaging it into a nice inexpensive system, and then reselling it as the "holy grail of filtration [for hobbyists]".

    The Anoxic system simply clarifies a system in the proper usage of laterite clay and other clay products in the hobbyist pond context, which this has been known and practiced for years in the aquarium industry.


    I think, if folk are willing to sacrifice the area footprint for the filter install, then I say do it if interested to do it, that is unless I am deemed too ignorant and prejudice to make such of a recommendation. :confused:
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2014
    crsublette, Mar 14, 2014
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  17. JohnHuff

    crsublette coyotes call me Charles

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    It has been a while since I have queried professor Novak since KKU dissappeared, but it appears Novak did the same for his Anoxic system that Waddington has done for his ERIC system. They have created them self a website, that is entirely dedicated for them to share their system unopposed and moderated entirely by them self, which is quite fine. Hopefully, this will be a nice safe place for Novak so he can feel comfortable in sharing much more information.

    Here is the new home of the Anoxic Filtraiton System.
    crsublette, Mar 14, 2014
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  18. JohnHuff

    JohnHuff Friends call me Dr. Sir John Huff

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    Thanks for the link. Part of the problem why those guys didn't treat Novak seriously is because of posts like this:

    http://anoxicfiltrationsystem.blogs...-its-easy-getting-word-out.html?view=flipcard

    It reads like a snake oil salesman's pitch. High on anecdotes, low on substance. I won't quote it but the entire post is fluff. It's the same sort of evidence that someone would give for a Skippy. Actually, just substitute Skippy in place of AFS and it would read the same. SMH.
    JohnHuff, Mar 15, 2014
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  19. JohnHuff

    crsublette coyotes call me Charles

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    Oh, this is too rich... The drama continues...

    And here is Mr. Novak chastising and addressing me directly... then also along with any other "doubters"... Obviously, Mr. Novak has paid a service to make sure nobody says anything bad about the AFS (anoxic filtration system) without him knowing it. Uh oh !!! Now we get to the truth of the matter as to why Mr. Novak created that blog, that is to tell the doubters how wrong they are and to tear down folk that factually disagree with him.

    Apparently, Mr. Novak found what the "doubters" have to say to be quite impressionable. Hmm... Why?

    It's been a while since I have queried professor Novak since KKU disappeared...

    Also, Mr. Waddington is only selling his system commercially since there is an actual demand for it and he is simply filling that demand. Mr. Waddington initially never sold his system commercially and the ERIC began entirely as a "DIY at home project" and these projects can be easily found on the YouTube from many years ago before Mr. Waddington started to sell it commercially. Aaahh, but now, in Mr. Novak's eyes, I guess Mr. Waddington is one of those "evil commercial filter" guys that are just too "ignorant and prejudice" to "get it".

    Real question here is... Why has the commercial aquaculture farms not taken this filtration system seriously? Oh, I bet they're just too "ignorant and prejudice" to "get it". Better yet, lets use Mr. Novak's own words, from an article in his blog website, "The Anoxic Filters BCB’ has a higher good bacteria count than what is expected, but the utilization of the special facultative bacteria in question could be better optimally if the filter was reengineered to do so. However, to do this would compromise the systems inexpensiveness to the hobbyist and then other conventional filters would become the better choice." Wha what... I thought the anoxic filtration was the "holy grail" of filtration...

    Furthermore, I can go on and on as to why and show examples of waste treatment centers and aquaculture businesses primarily utilizing wet/dry filters for their biological filtration.. Hmmm. I wonder why...

    Hey Mr. Novak, since you're watching me, try "googling" the conversion rate performance results of polygeyser bead filters in the commercial aquaculture industry. You will be amazed by how much information manufacturers allow the Universities to share. Actually, this is one type of feedback performed by Universities on how manufacturers improve their product and serves as good marketing for them. Wise up sir!!

    Also, Mr. Novak, the context of terms determine its definition, and, in the context of this freshwater pond hobby, the term "bog" is defined as a Veggie filter with an upflow particulate filter. The only two differences between the AFS and a bog, in our context, is the compartmentalization of the medium, and the use of settlement chamber sedimentation for particulate filtration instead of an integrated upflow particulate filter. Both filtration designs still perform a noticeable reduction of nitrates, whether it is by plants (primarily in bogs) or by the AFS (primarily in denitrification and much of the time AFS is seen with plants and microscopic algae in the AFS reservoir).
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2014
    crsublette, Mar 23, 2014
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  20. JohnHuff

    crsublette coyotes call me Charles

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    The above quote deserves to be repeated...

    It is quite astounding how Mr. Novak deems area footprint cost as quite irrelevant.

    Also, it is quite astounding how little informed hobbyists are involving the beneficial impact of clay products in the pond !!

    Watergardening hobbyists forever have been setting up "mini AFS's", that is pots with kitty litter and potentially other beneficial ammendments, even before Mr. Novak came along. Now, they have a good explanation as to why their ponds have worked out so well.

    Again... The Anoxic system simply clarifies a system in the proper usage of laterite clay and other clay products in the pond context. Novak is simply taking what is already scientifically known, repackaging it into a nice inexpensive system, and then reselling it as the "holy grail of filtration [for hobbyists]"...

    ...all of this is quite fine except lets try to be honest about it without using the "snake oil" salesman pitches and without making exaggerated claims, which they are, of ineffectiveness involving the "terrible conventional" filters...
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2014
    crsublette, Mar 23, 2014
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