DIY POND VAC

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divedaddy03 said:
Catfish,

Very interesting concept, I'm guessing you are right in saying that the vacuum is created with something similar to that air amplifier from exair.
I've always been fascinated with the concept, even before the Dyson air multiplier fan was on the market I was thinking about this concept and now I'm still trying to figure out other applications.
Do you think that this would work to maintain a vacuum underwater and have you seen any video of it (or similar) in action?
I think you're on to something!

Wayne
Wayne,

I tried to take that unit apart (disect it) to really see what was inside for guts, but it was pretty well sealed and I didn't think I should go too far with that enterprise at work.

I will tell you that it is pretty amazing to operate. We had a big water spill on the floor and I had to clean it up. I spilled it. I couldn't believe how well this thing worked!
It sucked up the water, it even sucked up a bunch of kotter keys and 1/4" nuts that happened to be on the floor and it sure as heck beat a mop!

I am certain that it would work underwater. I am not sure if it wouldn't work TOO WELL. It might suck the entire pond up before you just get the debris out.
But, I am sure that can be adjusted.

Catfishnut
 
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Catfishnut said:
Wayne,

I tried to take that unit apart (disect it) to really see what was inside for guts, but it was pretty well sealed and I didn't think I should go too far with that enterprise at work.

I will tell you that it is pretty amazing to operate. We had a big water spill on the floor and I had to clean it up. I spilled it. I couldn't believe how well this thing worked!
It sucked up the water, it even sucked up a bunch of kotter keys and 1/4" nuts that happened to be on the floor and it sure as heck beat a mop!

I am certain that it would work underwater. I am not sure if it wouldn't work TOO WELL. It might suck the entire pond up before you just get the debris out.
But, I am sure that can be adjusted.

Catfishnut

Catfishnut,

I really like that like I said before, I think you're onto something with that concept.
As far as adjusting goes, it could easily be adjusted by a "relief valve" concept in the hose or canister causing the hose to loose some of the vacuum efficiency.
Do you know how what size of air compressor you have at work? The size would also make a difference in performance.

Wayne
http://www.youtube.com/AWorld4Change
 
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Wayne,

The air compressor we have at work wouldn't fit in your garage or outshed very well. We have four of them and they are driven by 600 HP motors! LOL!
The main aspect for this vacuum pump operation is the volume of air. If you have a big enough storage reservoir, you could get by with a smaller compressor.
I have a 60 gal tank for my air with a 3 HP motor and compressor. This might work if you regulate the airflow. Then, you might have to stop vacuuming after
a few minutes to let the system catch up.

Not sure if this is the way to go, the more I think it through. There is a lot of wasted air in this system as the vacuum relies upon the constant movement of air through the venturi.
The design is compact and simple, but it is not very efficient.

I wonder if it wouldn't be better to take the headworks off a really good shop vac and mount that on a sealed plate lid atop a 55 gal drum. Basically just build a shop vac with a larger canister.
Install a large bottom drain in the tank to flush the muck out from and have the system mounted permanent in a hidden vault near the pond.

catfishnut
 
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Catfishnut said:
Wayne,

The air compressor we have at work wouldn't fit in your garage or outshed very well. We have four of them and they are driven by 600 HP motors! LOL!
The main aspect for this vacuum pump operation is the volume of air. If you have a big enough storage reservoir, you could get by with a smaller compressor.
I have a 60 gal tank for my air with a 3 HP motor and compressor. This might work if you regulate the airflow. Then, you might have to stop vacuuming after
a few minutes to let the system catch up.

Not sure if this is the way to go, the more I think it through. There is a lot of wasted air in this system as the vacuum relies upon the constant movement of air through the venturi.
The design is compact and simple, but it is not very efficient.

I wonder if it wouldn't be better to take the headworks off a really good shop vac and mount that on a sealed plate lid atop a 55 gal drum. Basically just build a shop vac with a larger canister.
Install a large bottom drain in the tank to flush the muck out from and have the system mounted permanent in a hidden vault near the pond.

catfishnut
I think that I would refer to Waterbug on that idea, I think that he has some experience in that area.
You're right, air isn't really very efficient however it's cheep to make if you already have a large/ish compressor...it just takes electric.
My ultimate goal is to make something that is super cheap to DIY and works really well...I'm not looking to sell it or make money from it but just to help other people in challenging times.
One of the reasons that brought up the compressor/tank size is because even using the system that I've built the compressor is not keeping up all of the way.
Yet another argument for a smaller vacuum pipe/head and smaller air jet!

Wayne, SC

DIY Koi Pond Filter with Quilt Batting - https://www.youtube.com/AWorld4Change/videos
 
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The link to the "DIY Koi Pond Filter with Quilt Batting" doesn't work. I'm always interested in fabric filters so I hope you can find it.
 
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Hey Waterbug, sorry it took so long to get back to ya...I've been busy! :)

Here it is embedded. Also, see the video of my DIY Air Lift Pond Vacuum in action too.

[video]

[video]
 
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Thanks.

For leaf removal I think it would be cool to see a swimming pool leaf vac driven by air instead of water.
na316.jpg

Using city water has always been an issue with these in ponds so compressed air could be a big win.

I think for in the mode of removing water from the pond it would be interesting to see a more portable setup, like one using swimming pool vac hose. Hope you keep at it.
 
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Waterbug said:
Thanks.

For leaf removal I think it would be cool to see a swimming pool leaf vac driven by air instead of water.

Using city water has always been an issue with these in ponds so compressed air could be a big win.

I think for in the mode of removing water from the pond it would be interesting to see a more portable setup, like one using swimming pool vac hose. Hope you keep at it.
Waterbug,

I agree with you.

Not only is city water harmful in large quantities but it's also expensive and wasteful (electric to pump air is cheaper and can by produced through solar).

I find an issue with using water to pump water out then adding more water back in...I know the benefits of doing a partial water change but I'd rather just pump in out and not loose water while pumping.

I've got some good ideas that I'm working on for building a smaller system. I was thinking about using a swimming pool hose too.

I'm going to keep at it. My ultimate goal is to figure out how to make something that works very well that anybody can build for very little money with parts from a local hardware store.

I'm not looking to profit. :)

Wayne, SC
 
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Waterbug said:
I like the plywood idea. Never thought of that. Since these vacs are only used once in a while it should hold up fine. And besides, these things always need revisions so building prototypes as cheap and fast as possible to learn faster is a good idea imo.

You'll only want a rubber gasket on one side. In the lid's dado would be my preference to keep it protected. Two gaskets only provide more opportunity for leaks, the extra surface between the 2 gaskets.

You're right about the clogging...it all depends on what is vacuumed. String algae will screw anything. And even leaves act differently depending on the type and how decomposed. You just never know. In my case I needed vacuums that would handle any case.

The Y to try and keep the grate from clogging is interesting and worth a try, but I'm not hopeful. I have seen similar type ideas on filters. The most successful would probably be the rotating drum filters. If you haven't seen these it is worth a check, might give you some ideas. And in very high end industrial filters the concept of automatically washing grates is used including long rotating mats. Also a good source of ideas. Learn from their hard work I say.

The reason I'm not hopeful is just the mechanics of water pressure. The pump creates a lower pressure which is why water comes thru the grate. Pushing water back up thru the grate would keep that small spot clear, but would not allow any water to flow down thru the grate in that open spot because water is being forced thru that spot in the opposite direction. I expect where ever water can flow down thru the grate will clog and the Y will keep a visibly clear spot but water will still not be able to pass so the grate effectively would be clogged, stopping water getting to the pump which cuts off flow thru the Y which would then allow water to go down thru the open spot and it to would clog.

I understand your thinking that the Y would keep the debris stirred up so it wouldn't "settle" on the grate. Unfortunately that's only wishful thinking. Water pressure in the upper chamber is higher than the lower, again, why water flows thru the grate. So any debris getting close to the grate will have a higher pressure above it pushing down. It glues it in place. Remember you already have a lot of turbulence from the incoming pipe. You could for example move the incoming pipe down, parallel with the grate, so the incoming water flowed across the grate to keep it "clean". But that fails too for the same reason, different water pressures.

What people have tried to do is make that Y flow move around the grate, The rotating drum moved the grate instead of the water jet. Moving the grate out of the water and washing it always seems to be a key feature, but that doesn't help you.

So maybe a rotating drum instead the tank. I personally wouldn't bother, just tossing ideas around.

One of the things I did, and you can see it in the Silt Vac's leaf trap, is make the grate surround the pump. Basically the grate would be the shape of the inside but 1-2" smaller.
GrateInTank.jpg

I like Fig B best because as the grate clogs it expands and presses against the sides and bottom. So the sides can stop it from breaking. And it's easier to build a floor to stop it there too. Fig A, once clogged, will be just like the tank and collapse.

It's worth pointing out the small amount of space in Fig A for debris to collect. There is a Catch-22 with these things. Fig B looks like it could hold a lot of debris, but it doesn't hold any more the Fig A because these only hold as much as will clog the grate.

It does take a certain thickness of material to actually clog water flow since water will flow thru debris to some degree. I make the grate have as much surface area as possible rather than total volume. Firstly because if it takes 2" of a debris to clog water flow if I have 5 times more surface area I can catch 5 times more debris before clogging. For example, say the area inside the tank above the pump was 1'x'1'x1. If I only lay a grate across the bottom, like in your picture, I'd have a 1 sq ft grate. But in Fig B I'd have almost that same bottom grate plus 4 sides for a total of almost 5 sq ft.

There is another benefit to more sq ft. It spreads out the amount of watering flowing thru the grate at any one point which reduces the water pressure at that point. This reduces the compaction of the debris which allows a thicker layer of debris while still allowing water thru. So that's another maybe 25-50% more debris to be collected.

I used this same principle to collect extremely fine suspended particles in a fabric filter. The particles collect on the fabric but still allow water to flow thru very slowly so that the particles themselves became the primary filter media trapping smaller and smaller particles. That's exactly how a diatomaceous earth pool filter works. The trick is reducing water flow to almost zero and that's done by making a huge (long and skinny) filter.
I understand what you are saying with the water pressure difference, and in that it will always win on clogging the grate.

I will still use a “Y” valve as I like the idea of having control over the flow of the output. I think you really sum it up when you talk about increased square feet of grate. That is ultimately what will determine how much debris will be collected before it clogs.

I have modified the drawing yet again. I am thinking of making a 4 sided grate with the flow coming in from the top. I am sure when I put the grate together I can make the top hinge and have some wire to tie it shut. I would also put a piece of wood attached to the intake, so when I put the wood cover on it would hold the cage down in place. (the intake pipe would be attached to the lid). The cage would have to be set deeper down from the top than the bottom and sides so water would flow over the top of the cage. There will be some air in the box as it will only prime as high as the top return.

What dimensions do you recommend for the holes in cage? I was thinking something around ½” x ½” or 5/8” x 5/8”. I will try and find some sort of cage wire.
PONDVAC3_zpscaf97c4a.jpg
 

HTH

Howard
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divedaddy03

Nice work. Have you tried a vertical pump section?.

I played with airlifts some years ago... The air in water wants to go straight up, so the airlift is less efficient at angles. If you could use a clear pipe you would see the upper edge of the pipe was filled with air which no longer contributes to lifting the water.

Keep on bodging and thanks for sharing.

Just thinking it is odd that we do not see more talk about DIY foam fractioners.
 
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Event Horizon said:
I understand what you are saying with the water pressure difference, and in that it will always win on clogging the grate.

I will still use a “Y” valve as I like the idea of having control over the flow of the output. I think you really sum it up when you talk about increased square feet of grate. That is ultimately what will determine how much debris will be collected before it clogs.

I have modified the drawing yet again. I am thinking of making a 4 sided grate with the flow coming in from the top. I am sure when I put the grate together I can make the top hinge and have some wire to tie it shut. I would also put a piece of wood attached to the intake, so when I put the wood cover on it would hold the cage down in place. (the intake pipe would be attached to the lid). The cage would have to be set deeper down from the top than the bottom and sides so water would flow over the top of the cage. There will be some air in the box as it will only prime as high as the top return.

What dimensions do you recommend for the holes in cage? I was thinking something around ½” x ½” or 5/8” x 5/8”. I will try and find some sort of cage wire.
PONDVAC3_zpscaf97c4a.jpg
I really like where you are going with these plans! Have you started to build yet?
Also, are you making this in a box like you show here or are you going to be using a drum or cylinder shape?
What size of pump are you thinking about?

Good work, Wayne, SC
 
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HTH said:
divedaddy03

Nice work. Have you tried a vertical pump section?.

I played with airlifts some years ago... The air in water wants to go straight up, so the airlift is less efficient at angles. If you could use a clear pipe you would see the upper edge of the pipe was filled with air which no longer contributes to lifting the water.

Keep on bodging and thanks for sharing.

Just thinking it is odd that we do not see more talk about DIY foam fractioners.
No I haven't tried a vertical shaft because I needed something to hang on to so I decided on this design.

That said, I'm not opposed of it however I think that it would add challenges rather than reduce them.

Where are you suggesting that I use clear pipe?

I am thinking of a completely different redesign w/a venturi style action under the water (water amplifier).

I've also been thinking about something else that may work (Think: Pond Pump + Jet Ski + High Speed Drill)....??

A protein skimmer is on my list of DIY Projects but that may have to wait until next year. :)

Cheers,

Wayne, SC
 
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I'm starting to confuse these 2 vacuums...I'm going to stop discussing the air lift vac in this thread. If I might make a suggestion to both inventors, consider each starting a new thread and linking back to your other threads. Come up with a name for your vacuum and use that in the thread title. Back when a bunch of us were inventing different vacuums we had the same problem, 5 threads all called something like "DIY Vacuum". Can be simple like "Event Horizon DIY Vac" and "divedaddy03 Air Lift Vac". Hopefully there will be a ton more posts on each and it could get confusing.

Event Horizon said:
What dimensions do you recommend for the holes in cage? I was thinking something around ½” x ½” or 5/8” x 5/8”. I will try and find some sort of cage wire.
The wire mesh I used was 1/4" vinyl coated hardware cloth (wire mesh), in the the section "Basket". Here's of pic of it full.

s09.jpg


This is mostly string algae but probably bits of dying algae because this pond had already been thoroughly vacuumed with the Muck Mop. So I think this algae was loose bits that had been stirred up, suspended, and therefore missed by the Muck Mop. So even when "all" large stuff was removed the silt vacuum still had to deal with enough large matter to clog. But generally I only had to clean the leaf trap once or twice per pond cleaning.

I'm not sure the 1/4" mesh would work in all designs. In the above Silt Vac the mesh was very close to the pipe wall. So the algae may get thru the 1/4" in amounts enough to clog the pump, but that tight space between mesh and pip wall could have been key. And of course it depends on what the pump can handle. We're only trying to stop the pump from clogging.

I like the idea of getting 4 sides for the wire basket. I'd still be concerned that when/if the wire does cog it will then become a solid container and pressure in the pump chamber would then increase and push the walls of the wire out. I used the pipe walls to contain the wire. But I think you should try it out for yourself. A lot more is learned doing than talking.

And a side note, using air lift as the pump would never create these problem pressures. But then we'd be right back to power issues. A smaller water pump would also not create these problem pressures. I never experimented with anything less than a 1/4 HP pump. Now I wish I had.
 

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