do goldfish change color with age?

Discussion in 'Fish & Koi Talk' started by talal101, Apr 12, 2011.

  1. talal101

    talal101

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    hello,
    i remember a few years ago i had a brown and orange goldfish that changed into a solid orange goldfish as it grew, a couple days ago i went to the petshop and bough 5 feeder goldfish to add to the group and just so happened to end up with a very gorgeous goldfish that had all orange fins and an orange mouth and a solid white body...he is only about an inch and a half including tail so im worried that with age he may lose the color and either become solid white or solid orange, i have never seen a goldfish like this in person or on the enternet so i was really happy when i found him/her. is it possible that he may change with age?, and also assuming he is under ideal conditions how long should it be before he grows to be 8-12 inches?
    thanks
    :banana::fish2::lol:
     
    talal101, Apr 12, 2011
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  2. talal101

    fishin4cars True friends just call me Larkin Moderator

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    Tatal, It's very likely it will change colors. Diet, water conditions, water temps. light, who really knows what makes them change. Even larger goldfish will change colors but the smaller they are the more likely it will change over time. Black coloring is the most unstable color, followed by, blues, whites, and finally orange. Common goldfish are born a tea color brown, this color is the most stable and very seldom change back to oranges or multi color when they are born that color. As for growth, again, it all depends on ideal conditions, genetics, etc. I have some that I have had for over four years that are just getting to the 6-7" size. Goldfish should be mature within two years but will continue to grow for years after. Use caution buying feeder fish. These fish usually come from stock tanks with very crowded conditions, they are shipped in great numbers for the purpose of feeding other fish. By far these are the most susceptible to diseases and infections. I highly recommend separating them and monitoring them for three to four weeks before introducing them to the rest of your pond.
     
    fishin4cars, Apr 12, 2011
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  3. talal101

    DrDave Innovator Moderator

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    UV causes colors to come out and therefore change.
     
    DrDave, Apr 12, 2011
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  4. talal101

    fishin4cars True friends just call me Larkin Moderator

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    I've wondered about that. It seems that on the Koi the sumi really forms better in the fall and cooler months, and the Beni/reds and oranges seem to show more in the spring and fall. I thought it might be temp. related but UV would make perfect sense. Learned me somtin new today!
     
    fishin4cars, Apr 12, 2011
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  5. talal101

    DrDave Innovator Moderator

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    Every spawn, I leave some in the outdoor nursery and most indoors. The indoors ones stay a nuetral color for many months. The outside ones that get UV start gaining colors within the first 6 weeks. This year I may have all of them in the new nursery since the aquariums take up too much time to maintain. My nursery is plumbed into the main ponds bio filter and has constant water turnover.
     
    DrDave, Apr 12, 2011
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  6. talal101

    talal101

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    thanks guys. i will keep your great advice in mind...i hope he does stay the same because he is really really gorgeous, but i honestly think that he may stay the same because the colors are solid and are most stable, i have never seen an ornage or a white one change color so im assuming he may stay the same but only time will tell
     
    talal101, Apr 12, 2011
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  7. talal101

    j.w I Love my Goldies

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    I have some orange and white goldies that have stayed the same and are quite pretty.
    Here's one:

    [​IMG]

    This one has a white nose:

    [​IMG]

    I have a couple that are all whitish or fleshy colored too:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    j.w, Apr 12, 2011
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  8. talal101

    talal101

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    wow those are really nice goldfish, i love that one with the white nose he/she is just beautiful, and i have been meaning to get a couple long flowy finned white ones into the mix for some time now, maybe on my next visit to the petstore because i have been meaning to get some for a while now.
     
    talal101, Apr 12, 2011
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  9. talal101

    shakaho

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    Orange and white is pretty stable. Your fish may well keep the current pattern. The most likely change is to lose orange.
     
    shakaho, Apr 13, 2011
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  10. talal101

    talal101

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    Yeah that's what I thought too, orange is most stable and second is white I would love for him to stay the same but if he changed I would be happy with him turning solid white too so that's a positive side so thanks for reminding me of that!
     
    talal101, Apr 13, 2011
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  11. talal101

    CometKeith

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    Hey, talal. i agree with fishin 100%. Feeder fish are much more likely to carry disease. They are brought up in very stressful conditions. One fish that is diseased can affect all your other fish. The only sure way to know they are ok is to put them in a quarantine tank for 3 weeks. Buying the more expensive fish you are much more likely to get a healthy fish.
     
    CometKeith, Apr 13, 2011
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  12. talal101

    stroppy stroppy

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    surely all goldfish fry are brown to start then turn orange or whatever color there going to be ?..thats what mine always do ...jw the fleshy one is called an albino i think, does it have red eyes ?i use to have two in my pond ...they stared off orange and after a year or two changed
     
    stroppy, Apr 13, 2011
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  13. talal101

    shakaho

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    The "feeder" goldfish at our local Petsmarts come in in beautiful condition. They go downhill rapidly because of bad water from overcrowding. Of course I quarantine all new fish, but I have never had a health problem with any of the fish I picked out of the $.13 or $.28 tanks. That is not the case with the goldfish that cost multiple dollars. Most of those look sick or at least stressed in the store. Of the seven I have bought from the expensive tanks, all of which looked perfectly healthy, two died, and two others had problems that appeared during quarantine.

    Paying more for fish doesn't mean they will be disease free. Quarantine is still necessary.
     
    shakaho, Apr 13, 2011
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  14. talal101

    j.w I Love my Goldies

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    The color thing is really baffling as I have 6 - 8 inchers that are still brown and then I have this little tiny one that is oj and white since I first seen it in the pond. Some things we will never know why it happens I guess :bouncycig:
     
    j.w, Apr 13, 2011
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  15. talal101

    fishin4cars True friends just call me Larkin Moderator

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    AMEN! Your 100% correct. I've bought the 10/$1.00 and had all ten grow up to be beautiful fish, spent hundreds of dollars on one and it arrived sick. Money spent does not mean if the fish is healthy or not. The problem with feeder fish is from birth to the time they arrive to be sold they are in crowded conditions. In must cases somewhere along the line they usually get placed in inadequate holding tanks. Not to say they were sick when they arrived, but If you look at petsmart, Petco, and most chain pet stores for example, look and see if they use a system that filters water thru all their tanks into one filter. (All the Goldfish on one system, all the africans cichlids on one system, all the south Americans on one system etc.) This is where a big issue usually starts, the expensive fish come in, one may be sick, the Massive load of feeders come in, Lots of ammonia, and waste in the bag. the store employee dumps the load in the feeder tank. Well, you guessed it that one fish that started off sick now has all the feeders sick, the expensive fish sick and the cycle is underway. (This is the primary reason to quarantine, You the hobbyist can't know for sure if it has or has not been exposed.)
    On the changing colors, I would guess that maybe 10-20% of goldfish change color in their lifetime, Shubunkins and multicolored fish are going to change the most. Black,& blue are the least stable, 95% of the time a red and white will stay red and white but the pattern may change slightly. Orange and black, 95% of the time will change during their life. usually loosing the black to some degree. The thing I must say is if it does sit back and enjoy the amazing changes, you can't stop it and many times over, the change will somehow turn out even better than you ever expected.
     
    fishin4cars, Apr 13, 2011
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  16. talal101

    j.w I Love my Goldies

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    I just looked this up and found it interesting:

    You can read the whole article here but I just posted the short version below:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koi

    The carp is a large group of fish originally found in Central Europe and Asia. Various carp species were originally domesticated in East Asia, where they were used as food fish. The ability of carp to survive and adapt to many climates and water conditions allowed the domesticated species to be propagated to many new locations including Japan. Natural color mutations of these carp would have occurred across all populations. Carp were first bred for color mutations in China more than a thousand years ago, where selective breeding of the Prussian carp (Carassius gibelio) led to the development of the goldfish.

    Carp are known as koi in Japan. Of the various domesticated carp species, the common carp (Cyprinus carpio) is one of the more commonly used in aquaculture. The common carp was aquacultured as a food fish as at least as far back as the 5th century in China. Common carp were first bred for color in Japan in the 1820s, initially in the town of Ojiya in the Niigata prefecture on the north eastern coast of Honshu island. By the 20th century, a number of color patterns had been established, most notably the red-and-white Kohaku. The outside world was not aware of the development of color variations in koi until 1914, when the Niigata koi were exhibited in the annual exposition in Tokyo. At that point, interest in koi exploded throughout Japan. The hobby of keeping koi eventually spread worldwide. Koi are now commonly sold in most pet stores, with higher-quality fish available from specialist dealers.

    Extensive hybridization between different populations has muddled the historical zoogeography of the common carp. However, scientific consensus is that there are at least two subspecies of the common carp, one from Western Eurasia (Cyprinus carpio carpio) and another from East Asia (Cyprinus carpio haematopterus). One recent study on the mitochondrial DNA of various common carp indicate that koi are of the East Asian subspecies. However another recent study on the mitochondrial DNA of koi have found that koi are descended from multiple lineages of common carp from both Western Eurasian and East Asian varieties. This could be the result of koi being bred from a mix of East Asian and Western Eurasian carp varieties, or koi being bred exclusively from East Asian varieties and being subsequently hybridized with Western Eurasian varieties (the butterfly koi is one known product of such a cross). Which is true has not been resolved.

    Differences from goldfish
    Koi have prominent barbels on the lip that are not visible in goldfish.

    Goldfish were developed in China more than a thousand years ago by selectively breeding Prussian carp for color mutations. By the Song Dynasty (960 – 1279), yellow, orange, white and red-and-white colorations had been developed. Goldfish (Carassius auratus) and Prussian carp (Carassius gibelio) are now considered different species. Goldfish were introduced to Japan in the 16th century and to Europe in the 17th century. Koi, on the other hand, were developed from common carp in Japan in the 1820s. Koi are domesticated common carp (Cyprinus carpio) that are culled for color, they are not a different species and will revert to the original coloration within a few generations if allowed to breed freely.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Differences from goldfish

    In general, goldfish tend to be smaller than koi, and have a greater variety of body shapes, and fin and tail configurations. Koi varieties tend to have a common body shape, but have a greater variety of coloration and color patterns. They also have prominent barbels on the lip. Some goldfish varieties, such as the common goldfish, comet goldfish and shubunkin have body shapes and coloration that are similar to koi, and can be difficult to tell apart from koi when immature. Since goldfish and koi were developed from different species of carp, even though they can interbreed, their offspring are sterile.
     
    j.w, Apr 13, 2011
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  17. talal101

    addy1 water gardener / gold fish and shubunkins Moderator

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    So us goldie peeps, just have cheap koi! lol
     
    addy1, Apr 13, 2011
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  18. talal101

    talal101

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    yes quarantine is necassary, though i have to be honest and say that i do not quarantine my fish but i do look around carefully throughout the tank and make sure the fish all look clear eyed, healthy and alert. one time when i had my tropical tank i introduced a group of tiger barbs and all the fish in the tank had died or gotten severly sick, i lost 4 angels, and a few other expensive fish, i was really upset that day, but strangley i have never ever had ich or other fungal diseases in my tanks in the whole 10 years of fish keeping.
    i deffinately agree

    nice read and very intresting, i wonder why goldfish and koi can't breed to produce fertile young?

    hahah addy it would appear so, we have ghetto koi but i must say that i think goldfish are just as beautiful and have many advantages over koi:bouncycig:
     
    talal101, Apr 13, 2011
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  19. talal101

    shakaho

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    The hybrids of koi and goldfish are sterile because they have an odd number of chromosomes. Koi have 50 chromosomes, and goldfish have 100. The hybrid will have 25 chromosomes from the koi parent and 50 from the goldfish parent. 75 chromosomes cannot be divided in half into eggs and sperm, so these have various numbers of chromosomes. Fertilization results in zygotes (fertilized eggs) with extra chromosomes and/or (usually and) missing chromosomes. These zygotes can't develop and just die.
     
    shakaho, Apr 14, 2011
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  20. talal101

    talal101

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    Wow goldfish have 100 chromosomes and koi have 50 that's amazing considering how much more complex humans are and yet we have less and that goldfish have more then koi but are like 1/4 the size or less genetics are just amazing
     
    talal101, Apr 14, 2011
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