Mystery Deaths - Awful

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Hello -

New to the forum - I am come here a very sad man. Something terrible happened to my pond/fish and I am not sure what the root cause is... it could be several things. I am at a point where I need to accept that they are all going to perish and think about how to move on. Let me say that having a place to come and write about this and hopefully have someone listen is very helpful.

History/info of pond:

- Small pond, all goldfish, about 150 - 175 gallons w/ waterfall.

- Was already in the house when we moved here in 2009 (not sure when it was originally installed although I think around 2000)

- All died once when a horrible pond service company cleaned the pond while I was away - they claimed the pump burned out so they left them w/o oxygen overnight. When I got back the next day the were all dead.I was devastated. I vowed at that time to take a more active role and never let anything like that happen again... now this.

Here a succinct version of how this unfolded:


Last weekend, I saw one laying on the bottom sideways - when you would try to retrieve him, he would swim off quickly. Things have gotten mush worse. One week later and about 9 of 14 have died (and they will soon all be gone). When I first noticed some were getting listless and not eating, I called the guy that used to care for the pond to help me (he is very good/reliable) - he came out right away, and they pH was spiked (they looked like they could't breathe). We gave them salt baths, moved them to a holding tank with multiple aerators - then drained the pond and washed the rocks and lily pads, and replaced with water from hose (well water). Fish looked better in holding tank but not 100%. We put them back in the pond when the temp warmed up and as I said, it's been a slow loss of fish each day. After the water change, the chemistry was perfect except for hardness (our well water is notoriously hard) so the pond guy had me adding salt. He has said that the hardness would not be killing them like this. The big ones died first - several little ones still seem very healthy and eat, but the larger the fish the more quick the death. Frogs still seems to enjoy the water.

Now to possible root causes:

I wish I could say i have no idea what happened, but I have some guesses.

1) Carnival fish - my wife (not blaming her) won 3 goldfish at a fair for our 2 year old son. I texted the pond guy to ask him if I could put them in the pond. He said they "should" be all right. So they were recently added - when we cleaned the pond, we never found them dead or alive. Did they bring a sickness to the pond. I

2) Gloves - I could literally beat myself in the head if this is the reason. I had some severe cuts on my hands so I wanted to wear gloves when I was pulling out the dead lilly pads and backwashing... so I grabbed gloves in the garage. I realize now that about 2.5/3 years ago I used those glove to spray some budding poplar trees that we had removed. I think I washed them after that but can't remember - needless to say, this has me worried, but if that was it, why not all the fish die at once, why are some still ok?

3) Spray - ok, so for 5 years I have never sprayed anything in the back yard (for weedkiller). Everyone told me I was crazy. So I did spot spray somewhat near the pond w/ Roundup. I have already read how that could have been a mistake but hear me out. I only sprayed very little and very close to the mulch. I had done this exact thing before (this season) with no repercussions. The pond guy is telling that it could have run down the hill into the pond when it rained. I talked to another pond guy that says he sprays Roundup and Trimec (so stronger commercial grade spray) near his pond all the time and never lost a fish. I am not ruling it out as the culprit and I know now it's never a good idea, so I won't do it again. Also, my neighbor sprays too... but again, he's done that since 2009 w/o issue.

4) Pond Clarifier - All last year I added 3/4 cup of pond clarifier after I backwashed and cleaned. Never had one issue. The pond guy said that's too much and this could have spiked the pH with the weird cool/wet weather we had. It's just another theory but why would they continue to die after we changed the water?

5) Food - could my food have gone bad? It sits in the island in our kitchen in a plastic container that has never been used for anything except that food - and they had been eating from this batch of food for weeks without a problem.

I know how much people are into fish here, and I know I made mistakes, trust me, I feel absolutely awful about this. I am 42 years old and was teared up last night when talking to my wife trying to figure this out. I work many long hours and so does she and we're trying to balance a young son - I am only saying that to give some context as to why I was spraying and doing something stupid like using random gloves - my head is not 100% in the pond space all the time. These fish made it through the harshest Winter you could imagine here in Pennsylvania - but then this.

What I am hoping to gain from this post:

Root cause: based on the info I provided can any one w/ expertise possibly deduce what happened? Are there any clues that I should look for that would point to the smoking gun?

Starting over: I want to make this right. I plan to divert any rain water that comes down the hill from possibly draining into the pond from the mulch - again, this has been happening for years w/o issue but I need to eliminate risk. Also, assuming we lose the rest of the fish, I will drain the pond, powerwash it, clean the filter/pump, and replace the lilly pads - to me, that is truly starting over but that's only my assessment. What are some recommendations for how to safely start again? What am I missing?

This is a very long post - thanks a ton to anyone that gives their time to helping me - so much appreciated.

Chris.






 
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Sorry to hear about your fish.

First things first, can you tell us more about the pond? What kind of pump and filter? What is the level of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate? What was the high ph? What is it normally?

I believe you have too many fish in there, which has led you to being on the edge of disaster.

In the future try to stock at closer to 30 to 50 gallons per fish. This way you some room for error.

Sorry, I deleted some other comments because I misread the first post originally.
 
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mrsclem

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Chris- Sorry to hear about your problems. You are on the right track about stopping any run off from your yard getting into your pond.
Buy a pack of latex gloves- about $2. at Walmart and disposable! You say your pond is 150-175 gal. and you had 14 gold fish. How big were they? This is the one thing pond owners never consider. It's always I've had my pond for years and nothing has changed. Fish grow! I guess you know by now never to put new fish into your pond without putting them in quarantine for 6-8 weeks.
I don't think the food has anything to do with it. I know when fish start dying your mind goes everywhere. Don't beat yourself up.
Regarding spraying chemicals- it can be done safely around a pond but should be done carefully so there is no chance of chance of anything getting to your fish.
Pond clarifier- you need to find out exactly how many gallons are in your pond before adding any chemicals. When you added salt, did you check salt levels? Too much salt can do more harm than good. I'm sure there will be many more people here to give suggestions and help. Hang in there and good luck. Welcome to GPF.
 

sissy

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gosh a service cleaned your pond while you were away and the pump was dead .They could have put in a temporary pump if they were a good service .That was the worst thing to do is clean a pond that is established .They cleaned all the good .Maybe carnival fish could have had something but that is past history .Cleaning the pond again may make it worse .Doing water changes and extra air may help more .
 
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ok - immensely thankful for the quick responses. Talking to each point:

> I will get the pump/filter brands and other chemistry specs tomorrow. The only testing I am doing is with strips and the pH was spiked in the darkest color - it's usually around 7.0 - 7.5 which it is now.

> I have been told numerous times that it was too many fish (they varied in sizes but some were rather large). It was not my choice to have this many - we inherited 14 when we moved in, and when the pond company killed the first batch, they replaced them all. However, when getting new ones next time, I will not put that many in again.

> Yes, that pond company and I almost went to court as they still tried to bill me for the cleaning. They "rectified" as quickly as they could by giving me new fish that same day but still, their lack of knowledge and professionalism was astounding. I know now that the full drain and powerwash (in an established, healthy setting) is superfluous.

> I am having a small trench dug and rocks put in for proper drainage this week

> I will buy the disposable latex gloves

> I am going to try to save the ones that are still healthy - putting them in holding tank tomorrow.

> The larger plan is to let nature takes it course here, and no matter what, not replace any fish this season. It will basically be a waterfall/pond for frogs and lilly pads, then we will close for the winter, then upon reopening start with a few fish and see how they do.

Again, this is such a riddle - I mean despite having too many in there, both sets of fish were warriors and survived insane winters - no runoff was ever a problem in 5 years. My fish guy says he's never seen anything like it... just totally sucks
 

sissy

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It was but the may have been the start of all his problems and he stated he wants to do it again .I know when i redid my pond in spring I put pieces of my old liner in pond water to save the good muck and as much old pond water as I could with aerator hoses in each barrel .Call me crazy but I may have helped my new pond out .I had barrels and stock tanks all over by the pond .
 
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RE: The pond cleaning timeframe. Yes, that mistake from the company happened 1.3 years ago (last May) so that's history now. It is that group of replacement fish that are dying now.
 

sissy

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Also remember we never had the polar vortex's like we had last winter .It was a bad long long winter.could they have given you sick fish
 

j.w

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Chris
How horrible for you to lose all those fish. I guess you will never really know the cause for their deaths but you are doing all the right things now to stop whatever it was from happening again. You are wise to let the pond sit for a year and just let the water cycle and let the frogs play in it. I always leave a nice layer of green fuzzy algae to grow on my liner. I have plenty of aeration using a nice big air pump, having a waterfall and a bubbling water spout. I also top the pond off w/ fresh water when evaporation occurs and every month or so give the pond a nice exchange of new water from my well. Let old water drain out while adding new in. I don't feed the fish every day either. I have goldfish and they can get by w/o much food. Too much food can spoil the water and if they eat a lot they poop a lot and foul the water. I think it's a good idea to divert that rain water from running into your pond. You never know what it could pick up from the ground. Any time you add new fish it is good to put them in a quarantine area for a few wks to make sure they are well and won't transfer anything to your old fish. I have an old bathtub set up as a small pond buried in the ground part way w/a water lily and a few other plants that I use for a quarantine for fish. That way it's all ready to go anytime I need it. Wishing you the best on starting over and hope you will stick around w/us to share your new pond and ideas :)
 

sissy

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yep even fertilizer and heavy rains can splash a lot of water up and into the pond
 

waynefrcan

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Sounds like to many fish and not enough water changes. This must be one of those preformed pond kits.
 

callingcolleen1

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The clue you gave is that the "biggest fish died first" and that says it all... The bigger the fish, the more oxygen they require. If the pond runs out of oxygen, or get very low on oxygen, then the biggest fish die off first. This is why the smaller fish seem unaffected and continue to eat. Over crowding of fish and not enough water circulation can cause a lack of oxygen as well. The pond will be lowest in oxygen just before the sun rises, that is also why people find the fish "dead in the early morning".

If your surface of the pond is "smothered" with too many floating plants, or even lily pads that are too dense, with a "pad on top of a pad", then the pond will overheat in the summer and smother the fish slowly.

Good luck and do not get discouraged, cause these things happen to all new pond people at one time or another.
 

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