Is 'swimbladder disorder' catching ?

Hi, I have several Koi and goldfish in a mature pond. The pond is well
maintained, treated regularly with medifin and freshstart.
Also have the UV tube and filters etc.

I've had few problems over the years. Just the occasional death - probably
natural.

I currently have one goldfish which clearly has the 'swimbladder' problem.
It's been lying on it's side for about 3 weeks looking dead, but wriggles
away if I try to net it out. I don't know whether to try and put it out of
it's misery or just leave it. Could it recover ? Should I try to help it
out of it's misery ? How do I do it humanely ?

Also - just yesterday another one looks like it's swimming a bit oddly. Is
'swimbladder' disorder catching between fish or is this just a coincidence ?

What should I do ? Advice warmly welcomed.

Carole

I have a fish in a similar state, but I figured it was due to
parasites or the like not a swim bladder problem. I was about to
remove the fish, raise the water temp and treat it with salt and maybe
praziquantel. All of my other fish are becoming more active, but this
fish behaves the way you're describing--laying on its side, swimming
away if I try to net it, and then lying on its side again. That seems
like a classic symptoms of parasites, doesn't it? My water is only
about 40 degrees right now. PH, etc. are all stellar.

I'd be interested in advice as well. If this is likely parasitic, does
it make sense to bring the salt level of the Pond up now or should I
wait until it's a bit warmer?

I'm sure this is a very common problem. My greatest concern is to help or
humanely destroy the ill fish, and protect the others.

Anybody out there to help please ?

Carole

"Pond Addict" <jumanji@charterinternet.com> wrote in message
news:7740c792-6328-4c25-bfe6-3916ea33e0c5@q1g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
>I have a fish in a similar state, but I figured it was due to
> parasites or the like not a swim bladder problem. I was about to
> remove the fish, raise the water temp and treat it with salt and maybe
> praziquantel. All of my other fish are becoming more active, but this
> fish behaves the way you're describing--laying on its side, swimming
> away if I try to net it, and then lying on its side again. That seems
> like a classic symptoms of parasites, doesn't it? My water is only
> about 40 degrees right now. PH, etc. are all stellar.
>
> I'd be interested in advice as well. If this is likely parasitic, does
> it make sense to bring the salt level of the Pond up now or should I
> wait until it's a bit warmer?
>

On Mon, 9 Mar 2009 13:47:42 EDT, Pond Addict <jumanji@charterinternet.com>
wrote:

>I have a fish in a similar state, but I figured it was due to
>parasites or the like not a swim bladder problem. I was about to
>remove the fish, raise the water temp and treat it with salt and maybe
>praziquantel.

That would be my recommendation. Swim bladder doesn't usually present
itself as a fish laying on the bottom, but just the opposite, being at the
top and usually upside down.

>I'd be interested in advice as well. If this is likely parasitic, does
>it make sense to bring the salt level of the Pond up now or should I
>wait until it's a bit warmer?

If no salt now a little bit won't hurt. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

I brought my fish in today, put it in pond water, gradually raised the
salt to .18 as it warmed up and several hours later the fish was
looking somewhat strong so I decided to add some praziquantel as well.
The fish is now swimming around quite well--although not 100%, it's
more than 100% better--swimming almost constantly. When I brought it
in, all it could do was lie on its side, and I haven't seen it lying
on its side for several hours now. It actually looks hungry. I'll have
to see if I can find some medicated food for it.

I plan to bump the salt one more time tomorrow and also add salt to
the pond. I checked and it's at 0% out there right now.

I looked at scrapings under my microscope but didn't see anything
prior to putting the fish in the tank. But, clearly something was
bothering this guy.

Anyway, Carole, I'd recommend the same approach since it sounds like
your fish is in a similar state. If you leave it in the pond, it will
probably just continue to suffer and die, and may spread problems to
your other fish in the meantime. I'd consider treating your pond with
salt now and with prazi when it's warm enough, especially if you think
other fish are exhibiting similar signs. If you do have parasite
issues, once the water warms up they'll become very active.

Dave

On Wed, 11 Mar 2009 06:59:13 EDT, Pond Addict <jumanji@charterinternet.com>
wrote:

>I'll have to see if I can find some medicated food for it.

Nix the medicated food. It isn't usually worth the extra money, imo, unless
you can get the stuff JoAnn use to sale.

Ingrid you out there? What was the name of it, Romet-B? I haven't had to
use medicated food since Prazi came out, flukes being my key problem. Also,
your fish really needs light feeding, nothing heavy, so its gut can adjust.
>I looked at scrapings under my microscope but didn't see anything
>prior to putting the fish in the tank. But, clearly something was
>bothering this guy.

I suspect gill flukes. Which would require a gill snip, but since you've
medicated not worth it now. The time I had another KHA help me with
checking one of my fish he had to go way up in the gill to finally find 1
fluke, so hardly an infestation. The hard conclusion to my problems at that
time was over crowding... and now I'd also say not continuing frequent
water changes thru winter... and disconnecting my bottom drain which
allowed bad water, imo, to settle down where the fish were. On slow flow
water intake at the bottom is not such a problem during the winter, imo.

>salt now and with prazi when it's warm enough

I checked into this and am happy to report Prazi does not require warm
water and can be used at any time. Another plus on its usage. ~ jan

------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us

OK I think I need to put some salt in but I've never done this before ...how
much ?

The poor fish is still there on it's side..I thought it was dead today
because it was on the surface...but it had gone an hour later so still
swimming I guess.

The pond capacity is 800 gallons (uk) 3600 litres.

How do I add the salt ? can I use domestic salt or do i need the salt I
have in my water softener. No problem either way as I have both.


"~ jan" <Seewebsite@jjspond.us> wrote in message
news:j0mnr4dbjqjp4sc5jsr107vpgqdtqpvquq@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 11 Mar 2009 06:59:13 EDT, Pond Addict
> <jumanji@charterinternet.com>
> wrote:
>
>>I'll have to see if I can find some medicated food for it.
>
> Nix the medicated food. It isn't usually worth the extra money, imo,
> unless
> you can get the stuff JoAnn use to sale.
>
> Ingrid you out there? What was the name of it, Romet-B? I haven't had to
> use medicated food since Prazi came out, flukes being my key problem.
> Also,
> your fish really needs light feeding, nothing heavy, so its gut can
> adjust.
>>I looked at scrapings under my microscope but didn't see anything
>>prior to putting the fish in the tank. But, clearly something was
>>bothering this guy.
>
> I suspect gill flukes. Which would require a gill snip, but since you've
> medicated not worth it now. The time I had another KHA help me with
> checking one of my fish he had to go way up in the gill to finally find 1
> fluke, so hardly an infestation. The hard conclusion to my problems at
> that
> time was over crowding... and now I'd also say not continuing frequent
> water changes thru winter... and disconnecting my bottom drain which
> allowed bad water, imo, to settle down where the fish were. On slow flow
> water intake at the bottom is not such a problem during the winter, imo.
>
>>salt now and with prazi when it's warm enough
>
> I checked into this and am happy to report Prazi does not require warm
> water and can be used at any time. Another plus on its usage. ~ jan
>
> ------------
> Zone 7a, SE Washington State
> Ponds: www.jjspond.us
>

I'd suggest getting solar salt if that's not what you have. It's water
conditioner salt that's 99.5% pure. 40 pounds sells for $5 at Home
Depot around here (Morton Solar Water Softener Salt). You need to make
sure the salt you're using doesn't have additives, as some conditioner
salt does. The blue bags at Home Depot are the ones to get. I know
Lowe's has similar, I'm just not sure if its the same brand. Check the
purity & ingredients on the bags.

Here's a salinity calculator that you can use (it assumes your salt is
at 0% to start):
http://www.cnykoi.co...rs/calcsalt.asp

Here's a good table of what the salt will do to your plants, if any:
http://www.bonniespl...to/salt_vs.html

Ideally, you'd want to go to .3%, but realistically that will probably
kill off most of your plants. Hopefully you can go to .2%.

I'd also look into adding praziquantel, which is somewhat expensive,
but does a good job.

The fish I brought in is now very active, (and clearly annoyed to not
be in the pond, but oh well). I still highly recommend getting your
fish out of there if possible because you can treat it better. In my
case, the fish seemed too weak to salt dip, so I brought it up to 80F,
salted to .3%, used prazi in the form of Jungle Parasite Clear, then
dropped the salt to .2% after a few days, changing water every 2-3
days. I gave it another dose of Prazi after the initial water change.
Within 12-16 hours the fish was responding. The thing is, the fish I
pulled out (which I also believe had flukes, Jan), had massive tissue
damage from lying on the bottom or something. While it's now swimming
right again, parts of the fish were almost transparent because of the
scale and tissue loss. You could see through one gill cover and also
see veins or such along its back. Layers of "skin" on the "face" and
down one side were almost completely gone until behind the gill cover
making the fish very susceptible to water-borne threats. I noticed the
"odd coloring" of the fish right away, but it took me a couple days to
realize what I was really looking at. If your fish is lying on its
side constantly, I wouldn't be surprised if its degenerating like
that, and if so I doubt it will recover in the pond unless your pond
temperature is already > 70F or so.

My fish's digestive system started working after the first day, and
then it started eating by day 2 or 3. I haven't noticed the fish
eating in the last couple of days, and I'm not sure if that's just
because it's so annoyed by not being in the pond now or something
else. It seems very active and healthy otherwise.

- d

I'd suggest getting solar salt if that's not what you have. It's water
conditioner salt that's 99.5% pure. 40 pounds sells for $5 at Home
Depot around here (Morton Solar Water Softener Salt). You need to make
sure the salt you're using doesn't have additives, as some conditioner
salt does. The blue bags at Home Depot are the ones to get. I know
Lowe's has similar, I'm just not sure if its the same brand. Check the
purity & ingredients on the bags.

Here's a salinity calculator that you can use (it assumes your salt is
at 0% to start):
http://www.cnykoi.co...rs/calcsalt.asp

Here's a good table of what the salt will do to your plants, if any:
http://www.bonniespl...to/salt_vs.html

Ideally, you'd want to go to .3%, but realistically that will probably
kill off most of your plants. Hopefully you can go to .2%. I'd also
look into adding praziquantel, which is somewhat expensive, but does a
good job.

The fish I brought in is now very active, (and clearly annoyed to not
be in the pond, but oh well). I still highly recommend getting your
fish out of there if possible because you can treat it better. In my
case, the fish seemed too weak to salt dip, so I brought it up to 80F,
salted to .3%, used prazi in the form of Jungle Parasite Clear, then
dropped the salt to .2% after a few days, changing water every 2-3
days. I gave it another dose of Prazi after the initial water change.

Within 12-16 hours the fish was responding. The thing is, the fish I
pulled out (which I also believe had flukes, Jan), had massive tissue
damage from lying on the bottom or something. While it's now swimming
right again, parts of the fish were almost transparent because of the
scale and tissue loss. You could see through one gill cover and also
see veins or such along its back. Layers of "skin" on the "face" and
down one side were almost completely gone until behind the gill cover
making the fish very susceptible to water-borne threats. I noticed the
"odd coloring" of the fish right away, but it took me a couple days to
realize what I was really looking at. If your fish is lying on its
side constantly, I wouldn't be surprised if its degenerating like
that, and if so I doubt it will recover in the pond unless your pond
temperature is already > 70F or so.

My fish's digestive system started working after the first day, and
then it started eating by day 2 or 3. I haven't noticed the fish
eating in the last couple of days, and I'm not sure if that's just
because it's so annoyed by not being in the pond now or something
else. It seems very active and healthy otherwise.

- d

On Tue, 17 Mar 2009 16:27:37 EDT, "Carole" <happibunni@nospam.live.co.uk>
wrote:

>OK I think I need to put some salt in but I've never done this before ...how
>much ?
>
>The poor fish is still there on it's side..I thought it was dead today
>because it was on the surface...but it had gone an hour later so still
>swimming I guess.
>
>The pond capacity is 800 gallons (uk) 3600 litres.
>
>How do I add the salt ? can I use domestic salt or do i need the salt I
>have in my water softener. No problem either way as I have both.

If you've chosen to leave the fish in the pond, start out with 7 lbs. of
salt. Put it in a bag and let it dissolve. Dave mentioned the type of salt,
I use same, blue bag Morton's. Most plants are dormant at this time, so
salt shouldn't hurt any. If growing though that's a whole 'nother other.

If you have flukes, salt, even to 0.3%, may not do the trick. ~ jan
------------
Zone 7a, SE Washington State
Ponds: www.jjspond.us