13 replies to this topic

[Polishchic]

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[ATTACH]1164[/ATTACH]I've posted this two places as I am not sure which is best.

I need some help as I have tried many things and they are not working....please check out the attached pictures and look at the head. I have a small 150 gallon pond and have had no problems in the last 3 years until recently. 4 of my goldfish have already died. I had bought 2 new ones about 4 weeks ago and added them to the pond. Two of my fish are fine while two are hanging on. The ph and temps are fine as well. I did a 50% water change one day and then a 25% water change the next. I then saw white spots (kind of slimey looking) on the two that didn't look very well so I started Ick Away...did two rounds. At the same time I started Melafix and Pimafix just in case it was a fungus or bacteria. So after two rounds of IckAway (added it, waited 3 days, 25% water change, then added more Ick Away) and day 6 of the other two meds., no more fish have died, the 2 that have white spots are a tiny bit better, the 2 sick ones still are not eating much and don't swim around very much either, but the white spots are NOT disappearing.

What is it (Ick or Fungas or neither) and how do I treat the pond or do I just treat the 2 fish that are sick? Do I need different meds? What about a salt bath for those two sick fish? What about the other two? Would that help? Thank you!!

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[chilligirl]

Looks like a thickened slime coat - quite common on oranda's wen. If your fish weren't dying, I'd say it indicates new growth. However, since fish have been dying, it's likely due to either poor water quality (have you checked your ammonia levels?) or a parasite (not ick).

If your ammonia is fine, I'd rest the fish for a couple of days - treating with multiple things like you did is really hard on their systems, then treat with either a 0.3% salt treatment or an anti-parasite med that contains formalin. These are the two recommended meds for Costia and Chilodenella, the parasites that cause thickened slime covering on the head and gill areas (from Fancy Goldfish by Johnson & Hess).

Good luck!

[DrDave]

You might be too late, your first line of treatment should have been a 2% bath for a maximum of 10 minutes, followed by a .3% for up to a week. Then reducing it to .1% salt. Only then, should you start addding the more expensive medications.
Salt is the most effective, first line of defense for a lot of ailments.
It is possible that it has dropsy.

If it is dropsy, here is a bit of info on that from my web site.
Dropsey/Bloater:
Dropsy, also known as Bloater or Pinecone disease, is usually caused by bacterial invasion of the fishes' kidney. A herpes virus may also contribute. There is a sporozooan parasite that can damage the Kidney this way, called Mitraspora cyprini, but I have yet to see this on a necropsy. Dropsy is, for all intents and purposes, untreatable, based on 2 years experience, using the following drugs: Azactarn, Baytril, Chloramphenicol, Gentamicin, and Amikacin. I have tried a Sulfa drug, brand name Albon, and that did not resolve the problem either. Bacterial dropsy is usually caused by Aeromonas or Pseudomonas bacteria. I have also seen cases infected with Mycobacteria. By the time and the scales protrude form the body, the damage to the kidney is so profound that recovery is impossible. If you must try to save the fish, isolate the specimen, elevate temps while elevating oxygenation, and begin injecting antibiotics intraperitoneally. You could also feed the antibiotics in a medicated feed.

[koikeepr]

Are these spots all over the fish or just on the head as one the picture? If it's a viral thing (versus bacterial or fungal) like Lymphocystitis--then no medication will help at all.

Can you describe the spots please. It's kind of hard to see in the photo. Are they like pimples or are they just spots?

[Polishchic]

Thanks for the help.....the white slime/dots are mostly on their heads..I can't see if there are any other spots anywhere else. There is labored breathing mostly with the one in the picture and he stays moslty at the top, hence the being able to take the pictures. [ATTACH]1171[/ATTACH] (Click image for larger version)They really aren't eating either.

So should I do a salt dip with the two fish or do the whole pond (150 gallon)? I have some salt in it now.
Or should I do some other medications? What kind?
When the first 4 died, they died within 5 days of each other. I haven't lost one in 5 days but who knows at this point with these 2 with white spots/slime on them.

What about the 2 "healthy" fish - as they eat and swim fine .....at this point?
What about getting new fish in the future? Is my whole tank contaminated?

Thanks again

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[koikeepr]

This photo is better and more up close. It does look like it's on the head only. Hmmm...

You could dip the fish, the problem is that the others might have the disease as well, so I would treat the whole pond, too. The question at this point is is it parasitic or is it bacterial. If it was parasitic, I'd treat the pond with a med that contains dimilin (diflubur)

But, unfortuinately you're unsure. It still looks a lot like ich from the photos. With something lile lympocystitis, the fish tend to behave the same as normal and it is not typically deadly. If it was something like a pox, the spots would be much larger and waxy looking. And that doesn't appear the case in this situation. Anchor worm starts off as white/pinkish pimples, but this still looks more like dots...I dunno, I'm thinking Ich based on the looks of it.

In this case, it can take at least 5 weeks depending on water temps for this situation to remedy itself, so you need to be patient and keep treating.

I agree with the salt treatment. Here's my recommendation:

1. Add one teaspoon of salt per US gallon.

2. Twelve hours later, add another one teaspoon of salt per US gallon.

3. Twelve hours later, add another one teaspoon of salt per US gallon.

4. Within 48-60 hours of the second salt dose at 80 degrees, the Ich should be mostly gone (IF it's ich, that is).

5. Leave salt in the water for another 3-5 days unless you're worried about your live plants.

6. Remove salt via partial water changes. (30-40% at a time if desired).

Make sure to buy POND salt, and not just aquarium salt. Most petshops (even the big box ones) sell pond specific salt.

Let us know what happens in a week or so...

[DrDave]

Don't worry about your plants, they can be moved or replaced. I have a link on my web page to the University of Florida on the use of salt. I suggest you read that before doing anything.

[Polishchic]

I did use IckAway (twice) but it didn't have formalin in it, just malachite green. Does that matter?

Thanks, I'll go and get some more pond salt..... from what I gather 1 cup = 16 tablespoons = 48 teaspoons so if I have around 150 gallon pond...I would need basically 3 cups dissolved each time (x3 = 9 cups total). The water temp is around 78 degrees and I took the plants out.

At what point can I add new fish?

Thanks again!

[koikeepr]

you should not add any fish until you see that every evidence of those spots is completely gone, and then I'd wait another 4 weeks after that to be sure. Also, you should be quarantining new fish for at least 3-4 weeks when you introduce them to your pond. New fish added to a pond is exactly how many new diseases come about.

Do you have the capacity to have a small quarantine tank somewhere? Could be as simple as a large plastic rubbermaid container with a small filter and air stone.

When you got the ick (or whatever it is), had you added any new fish in the 4-8 weeks previous to contracting the disease in your pond? Because that could be your culprit right there. If so, I would not buy any fish from that particular breeder/shop.

[Polishchic]

An update....looks like the fish now has dropsy....so now what if anything do I do. He is just staying in one spot at the top of the water looking like he is about to expode. I still saw a bit of white spots on his head but less then before. The other three fish appear to be doing fine...eating and swimming. Ugh!

[stroppy]

if he was mine and its dropsy i would put him to sleep .... clove oil is very good for a painless end ..sorry i cant give any good news but maybe someone here can

[koiguy1969]

thers no treatment for dropsy.. its not highly contagious but can be spread, by the time the fish is swollen and scales raised the best thing you can do is put him to sleep.

[DrDave]

The most humane and painless way to put him down is ice water. I take a bowel, and in shallow water, add the fish, then I start adding ice cubes until you have completely covered the water. Then I put it into the freezer. The ice water puts them into a deep, hibernative sleep and the freeze takes them while basically unconcious.
There are a lot of ways to do it, but this one does not deprive them of oxygen, so they do not suffocate to death.

[koikeepr]

Ditto. No cure for dropsy. Put him out of his misery. Dr. Dave's concept is perfectly acceptable. Also, you can put him in a bag and put a cup of gin in it...they just humanely sleep once gin hits the system....

So sorry to hear about your situation.