8 replies to this topic

[Shaeward]

I know there is a Koi standard but I'm having a hard time finding it. Anyone have a link? I found the AKCA site but didn't see a link to the written standard.

I've been doing a bit of research and it was interesting to learn the butterfly Koi has only been recently accepted (show wise) in the US. Seems they're not well favored in other countries and are not showable.

Does anyone here show Koi or any other fish?

[koikeepr]

what are you looking for in terms of standard? Size/shape or breeds? Am just not clear.

Yes, Americans love butterfly koi--but many purists do not accept them. The japanese absolutely detest them and many of the european countries (such as Gernans), don't favor them either. Some folks don't even consider butterfly koi (also known as long fins) to even be koi. Many do not like the body shape because it is thinner/narrower than standard koi, since prize koi in general are regarded because of their heft, bulk and "shoulders."

I personally adore them, and have two. There's something about the way they float around that I just love. Some even say that butterfly koi are healthier than standard fin and easier to keep. Am not sure if that's legitimately true as koi are pretty hardy fish in general.

In most shows of regard you are not allowed to show them. There is some talk at some shows that they may begin to accept them into shows, but in their own category and not against standard fins...

[Airic]

This is interesting, long fins are one of my favorites as well. I went to a koi show here in Indy and was currious why I didn't see one. I wanted to buy some but none were available, now I know.

[Shaeward]

koikeepr said:

what are you looking for in terms of standard? Size/shape or breeds? Am just not clear.

Like with dogs...there is a different standard for each breed. When showing, each breed is judged against their own written standard. There must be something like this for Koi, otherwise, how would the judge know what to look for and breeders know what to strive for? I found a very short standard for Butterfly Koi. From what I've read, a standard was being produced back in '06 for them because they couldn't be judged against the traditional Koi standard since they do not conform to it.

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Yes, Americans love butterfly koi--but many purists do not accept them. The japanese absolutely detest them and many of the european countries (such as Gernans), don't favor them either. Some folks don't even consider butterfly koi (also known as long fins) to even be koi. Many do not like the body shape because it is thinner/narrower than standard koi, since prize koi in general are regarded because of their heft, bulk and "shoulders."

Yes, this is what I've read. It's interesting because in Boxers the same goes for the bobtail. The bobtail line was created in the UK in preperation of docking being out lawed (which it finally was). Many breeders don't consider them to be purebred Boxers (the FCI/German standard doesn't allow them).

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I personally adore them, and have two. There's something about the way they float around that I just love.

Agreed. We have 2...I could sit and watch them for hours.

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Some even say that butterfly koi are healthier than standard fin and easier to keep. Am not sure if that's legitimately true as koi are pretty hardy fish in general.

It's my understanding that is why they were created. A standard fin Koi was crossed with a longer finned, wild Koi in an attempt to create a healthier Koi.

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In most shows of regard you are not allowed to show them. There is some talk at some shows that they may begin to accept them into shows, but in their own category and not against standard fins...

I've read that they have already been accepted to compete in AKCA shows.

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This is interesting, long fins are one of my favorites as well. I went to a koi show here in Indy and was currious why I didn't see one. I wanted to buy some but none were available, now I know.

A Koi show where Koi were being judged and awarded placements/prizes? That would be interesting to see. I've been to a "reptile show" but only thing I saw were reptiles being sold. At dog shows (AKC anyway), dogs can't be sold. It's strictly a competition.

[koikeepr]

you can buy koi at a show. It's very common that breeders will have them for sale. I've certainly been to the Westminster Dog Show in NYC and been able to connect with breeders that were selling. Perhaps not at the show directly, but they did talk up their puppies at home...

But it is not uncommon to be at a koi show and to see someone willing to sell their fish or others.

Koi are judged as follows:

Order of Ranking Criteria
1. Body Conformation
2. Color
3. Pattern
4. Quality

[Airic]

I see you are from Indiana too. Early summer they had the show at Seasons Nursery in Fishers. If you are close, it's worth a visit. They have a big selection of koi and water plants.

It was a neat show and amazing how big the fish were, biggest I've seen. Most were doitsu. They were also showing shebupkins (?) that were the size of softballs.

[Shaeward]

koikeepr said:

I've certainly been to the Westminster Dog Show in NYC and been able to connect with breeders that were selling. Perhaps not at the show directly, but they did talk up their puppies at home...

Correct. You can talk (this is common at any show) but it's against AKC rules to sale on show grounds. One of the best ways to find a reputable breeder, see different lines, etc. is at dog shows. But don't expect to walk away with a puppy in hand.

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Koi are judged as follows:

Order of Ranking Criteria
1. Body Conformation
2. Color
3. Pattern
4. Quality

I can find standard color and patterns for Koi (I didn't realize there were so many!) but not conformation. What is the standard conformation? My two have different looking heads. The yellow has a more squared off head while the orange has a more tapered head. I first thougt the squarer head would be more correct but the more I see photos of high quality show Koi, it seems the tapered head is the correct shape.

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Early summer they had the show at Seasons Nursery in Fishers. If you are close, it's worth a visit.

We're about 1.5 hrs from Fishers. I'll have to keep it in mind for next year...it would be interesting to have a look around.

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They were also showing shebupkins (?) that were the size of softballs.

Wow! I didn't realize Shubumpkins could get so large. We have 3 in our pond. I figured they'd stay more slender.

[DrDave]

The color has nothing to do with the shape of the head. What you saw was coincidental.

According to my Koi Importer, there are Taiwanese and Japanese Koi shapes. One has the more pointed nose and the other more pug like. I get both from my Kohaku and Sanke Japanese Koi. I am sure that is due to centuries of mixing and in-breeding.

[Shaeward]

DrDave said:

The color has nothing to do with the shape of the head. What you saw was coincidental.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. When I mentioned color, I was referring to my own Koi. My yellow one has a more square head and my orange one has a more tapered head.

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According to my Koi Importer, there are Taiwanese and Japanese Koi shapes. One has the more pointed nose and the other more pug like. I get both from my Kohaku and Sanke Japanese Koi. I am sure that is due to centuries of mixing and in-breeding.

Much like dogs...different lines tend to have slightly different looks. Which is correct to standard? The pointed nose or the pug like? Or is there not a lot of importance put on head shape?