32 replies to this topic

[koikeepr]

oof! a leak! ah, I see, what you mean. Your water basically flew away!

Yes, yes, this is definitely a freak thing, but can certainly happen and create a severe problem. This is why shut offs are critical to any filtration system indeed!

[DrDave]

Yes, what happened is I have a 12 X 12 awning over the nursery. Attached to one of the legs is a hose that goes to a small pump in my lower pond. This hose feeds the nursery and the overflow goes back to the lower pond. The wind blew the awning far enough away so the hose was draining directly to the ground, not the nursery.

If I had a bottom drain or outside pumps my fish would be dead and the pumps would have burnt up. That is the point I have tried to make all morning.

So this thread is for how to prevent this from happening no matter the drain or pump arrangement.

Now does everyone get it?

[CliffandJoann]

Yes Doc Dave, I understand what your saying.
You stated in your original post (which I can not find) how bad this would have been in a BD pond.

My point is...
If you have a bottom drain with a gravity fed system this can't happen, as the water
goes from the bottom drain into the filter system (the filter tubs are level with the pond) . The water can not drop any lower than
the outlet line from the bottom drain.
Both the filter tubs and water level are the same...The outlet going into the bottom
drain is about 5-6" below the filter tubs, thus the water level can not drop any lower than
5 or 6" in our pond.
This is a simple drawing



This is a more through drawing showing the water leaving the filter tubs
on it's way to the biological pond



This is a professional drawing, birds eye view.

[newday3000]

your design can still overflow. if water is restricted i.e. exiting a tub to the next tub leaves, or something plugs the exit, your pump will slowly raise the level of water somewhere else. No closed system, is fool proof, leaks, plumbing, rain, liner hole, crack, bottom drain leak, or piping underground.... many ways it can happen.

The only 100% method to prevent it, is stop the pump.

[CliffandJoann]

newsday, Our design can not overflow.

it's not getting pumped out of the pond, it's getting pumped out of the filter box,... the water gravity fed out of the pond into the filter box, so it cannot go below it's own level... water seeks it's own level. The pump is in the filter box, not in the pond.
That's way I posted the pics...

[newday3000]

yes, it can. you have plumbing, seals connections. Why do you think nothing can ever leak?

[nc0gnet0]

CJ your right it cannot unless you rupture the elbow on the bottom drain or part of the piping that runs frm the bottom drain below pond level, then, as newsday says, you can still have a catastrophe. Not very likely to happen though and you should notice the declining water level before it is too late.

Newsday, I don't think she claimed it could'nt leak, but it won't drain untill its empty (unless what I posted happens).

[koikeepr]

Cliff and Joann are correct. My pond is plumbed the same exact way (except my pump is out of the water--but in the same spot and at the same depth (under water line). It doesn't sound possible, but it is the natural law of physics/water. As Cliff and Joann said, water seeks its own natural level.My pond also can't go below 8 inches no matter what. I do have a shut off in case of something catastrphic happening.

But, of course, if there is a hole in the liner on the bottom--there is nothing that can save a pump, fish or anything else. Barring something like that (knocking on wood).

There seems to be a lot of misinformation about BD's out there....

[koikeepr]

nc0gnet0 said:

CJ your right it cannot unless you rupture the elbow on the bottom drain or part of the piping that runs frm the bottom drain below pond level, then, as newsday says, you can still have a catastrophe. Not very likely to happen though and you should notice the declining water level before it is too late.

Something like this can happen in any plumbed situation--not just in relation to bottom drains.

I'm not sure why bottom drains spook so many people. But I sure as heck couldn't live without mine. Of course, there's more than one way to plumb a pond and everyone should feel comfy doing what they want. But BD's really pose no dramatic threat to ponds.

[nc0gnet0]

Koikeeper I was not trying to spook anybody, just clarifying what I beleive newsday was trying to say, bottom drains are great, I am considering incorporating them in my 5000+ gallon pond to be finished this spring. The only real drawback in a BD in a pond with a liner is the seal.

[newday3000]

koikeepr said:

I do have a shut off in case of something catastrphic happening.

You have a shutoff for the pump just in case. I would not try to state your design is immune from losing water. As DrDave's post states, strange unplanned things happen that you can't predict.

I think this is the whole point of the thread.....What can be done to prevent or minimize the unplanned damage or loss of fish that can happen to everyone.

[nc0gnet0]

Quote

What can be done to prevent or minimize the unplanned damage or loss of fish that can happen to everyone.

Low level water sensors hooked up to civil defense sirens..........

[CliffandJoann]

Gosh Newsday, I though we were discussing a pond emptying because of a pump,
or what happened to Doc Dave.

Of course if someone took a knife to my liner, I would expect it to empty.

The only 100 % asurance of a never having a leak from a catastrophe, like a hole in the
bottom of the liner -- is not having a pond.

People are so afraid of BD's, it just amazes me. After all the info on the internet
about BD's I don't know how anyone with a large pond, can build one without one.
We only used a uv light( that my son picked up at a yard sale for 1.00) for a couple of years, then we thew it away...
the last nine or ten years, we just depend on the BD and water changes to keep the pond crystal clear.

My hubby managed a pond growing up at his parents home that was cement. It was about 300 gallons,
always clear and totally managed by a natural eco system. It was clear and beautiful, no filters, no pumps,
loads of plants...however, it
just had a few guppies and clouds
from the fish tanks inside the house. Nothing like the fish load we have today with koi and goldfish which requires
lots of filtration, and water changes.

[newday3000]

sorry, maybe I mis-understood, your post seems likes it's saying BD prevents loss of water???? Althouth I've never seen anyone state that's why they put a BD in to begin with. sounded like your suggesting DrDave's problem is solved with a BD???

[CliffandJoann]

no, that is what I am not suggesting... once again you mis-understood.
I am saying a pond can not empty with a gravity fed system, as we have.

It's just that I believe Doc Dave made reference
that his problem could have been worse with a BD.
If I'm incorrect Doc Dave, please enlighten me.

Here is a link to our DIY system, that explains the pond operation

http://backyardpond..../untitled1.html

I see newsday, your planning a larger pond, are you putting in a BD?

Edited by CliffandJoann, 08 December 2009 - 11:17 PM.