31 replies to this topic

[D&RW]

if this is talked about in a thread already, please direct me. i don't have much time right now and will do a search when I can.

I have heard/been told:

1) despite advertising to the contrary, bead filters are not good biological filters and should not be relied on as such.
2) the media in bead filters tends to clump up with accumulated debris even if you do a regular backwash, say weekly, until clear. only if one has a blower will it stay thoroughly clean and the media unclumped.

person who told me this really knows a lot about ponds, has a ton of experience. So far, in evaluating what he said I must say I'm certainly still a neophyte, but I have done extensive research and reading. Everything else this person told me sounded spot on. I don't intend to rely totally on our Ultima II for filtration, but I have thought if the other system went out for some reason, we'd be ok with just the bead filter. And, I'd never heard anything about clumping and the need for a blower. Apparently I can add one to the current system, but is it really needed?

[koikeepr]

I can only assume you were on koiphen and talking to the likes of Birdman or one of the other resident pros.

Yes, if you recall we did have a short thread on this. The Ultima II is supposed to have a particular media that does not clump and in three different sizes to prevent stacking. The whole thing about the Ultima II is that that a blower is not required. There is lots of talk about the bacteria in a bead filter going bad if you don't clean things properly and often because of the intense pressure built up in the filter itself.

So, that's why folks suggest also adding a barrel or some other form of bio filtration just in case. I've said this before in a thread, but from everyone I've spoken to that have long dealt with bead filters, is that the filter companies would like you to believe that a bead filter can be a stand alone form of filtration, but those with expertise think it's really not the case. The experts do rave about the capabilities of a bead filter, but agree that some pre-filter before the bead filter is essential so that you cut down on the muck entering it to prevent problems.

In my new build, if I go with a bead filter (and I'm still undecided), I will keep my barrel so that it will continue to act as a prefilter (as I have it now) and for added bio filtration.

DoDad could be of help here. Where the heck is DoDad?

Edited by koikeepr, 14 January 2010 - 09:02 PM.

[D&RW]

It would be interesting to do an experiment. With a given fish load, given conditions, etc. run just a bead filter and see if the water stays right.

I never have planned on just the bead filter unless the other system went down and then only until I could get another pump. I already have two pumps for that system, so the likelihood of the bead having to suffice is low.

Plan on keeping my fish load low. Right now I have 17-18 with 5 Koi. I don't think I'll add any this summer; see how things go.

The prefilter for my bead system consists of filter matting in the bottom drain and the usual matting in the skimmer. Also, there's the "pot" in front of the sequence.

I built a kind of cute little house for the sequence. I'll take some pics and post them.

[koikeepr]

the "pot" is not a pre-filter. Just a catch for the thick stuff. In no way acts as additional bio filtration. I would not leave it as such if it were my system. Throw a barrel in front---even a small one.

[D&RW]

No, I wasn't planning on the pot to be anything other than a strainer. But the barrel prefilter is something to think about. It would save me having to put filter material in the bottom drain and having to clean it regularly. A barrel would be more accessible.

I'm going to post the pictures of the external pump "house" on the external pump thread

[koikeepr]

right. Like I mentioned when you talked about that filter media under your BD--that's a total PITA and is not how it's meant for a BD to work. That stuff needs to really easily get into the BD. Just put a barrel in--even if it's a smaller one to serve as a sieve to catch all the crap that your DB will suck up. Filter media there is gonna have to be cleaned every few days and to me that just creates work. I'm trying to personally keep my work level down when it comes to filtration--and I certainly try to do everything to avoid getting my hands wet in the pond.

I never have to clean my strainer pot. Everything stays at the bottom of my barrel so I can just send it to waste.

[D&RW]

So, I have this bottom drain piped into the skimmer via a 3 in. pipe with a gate valve outside the skimmer. In the skimmer the 3 in. pipe is reduced to a 2 inch and then piped into a T. The bottom leg of the T has a gate valve and is open ended to draw from the skimmer itself. The top of the T is connected directly to the bottom drain and then to the intake pipe for the external pump.

Where pray tell would I put the barrel? And,

Will the Sequence generate enough "pull" to bring the water through the barrel to the pump?

rw

[koikeepr]

Hmmm...I see...a skimmer. Yes, forgot about the skimmer...

Just to make sure I understand your filtration properly, are you saying that your BD and your skimmer are separately pulling from your pump as divided by a tee? I'm pretty sure that's technically not the most effective way to do it as you are splitting the flow rate. I guess you can get away with it tho...

So, your retro BD is plumbed AFTER the skimmer basket? In other words, the debris that comes into the BD is not hitting the skimmer and is going directly to the pump via that tee. The water from the BD separately enters the pump. I'm not sure what type of skimmer you have, but is it possible to plumb the BD to have it pull into the skimmer and then it all goes into the pump? Not sure if that's doable, nor what happens to the flow rate--but since you already have a tee involved in the equation, I'm thinking you might end up with more pull? Dunno....have you tried it?

When you have a skimmer, you're technically supposed to have it on it's own pump, and then you'd have the BD's on their own pump. But, of course, there's more than one way to filet a fish...and I'm sure there are folks who rig it up all to a single pump such as you have done.

[D&RW]

I'm sure mine is a bizarre set up. Yes, the bottom drain goes directly into the pump with the exception of the basket and pot. That's why I rigged a filter into the BD--I couldn't figure out any other way to filter the water.

Now I suppose it's possible to just plumb the bottom drain into the skimmer without a direct line to the pump, but that seems like it would generate very little suction. You'd have an open ended supply line dipping into the skimmer with the pump feeding off that. Whatever flow you got for the skimmer and bottom drain would be secondary to the skimmer emptying.

The system worked well with the submersible pump because it had a direct connect so essentially was the same set up as this external pump will be. I'd have to clean out the BD filter about every two weeks and boy was it yuky by then.

So, I'd be delighted IF there is a way to plumb in a barrel filter in line before the external pump, but right off I can envision it. I'm going to take a look at the doc's designs for barrel filters and see if I can't figure it out.

[koiguy1969]

you'll need to encorporate a filter pit set up to PULL the water thru the barrel !!

[koikeepr]

Right. A sponge at the bottom of your BD is just not the way to do it. First off, Aqua Art does sell a special BD cover to prevent large things from entering the BD. I can't tell you how many frogs have gotten sucked into the BD and thankfully landed in the bottom of the barrel (some I have been able to save and release and others were just dead as a doorknob), and avoided them going into my pump basket. Eeeewww! Like I said, I get nothing in my pump basket and never have to clean it.

My barrel is plumbed before my pump, but as koiguy says, it works with gravity flow and is in a filter pit. You need a way for gravity to feed your barrel. Perhaps your propery is on a slope that would be sufficient to fill your barrel with water? That's the purpose of a BD--works with gravity, too.

[koiguy1969]

well his pond is partially above ground so a partial burial of the barrel will work just as long as he gets the barrel water level down at pond water level.

[koikeepr]

koiguy1969 said:

well his pond is partially above ground so a partial burial of the barrel will work just as long as he gets the barrel water level down at pond water level.

Being partially above ground, he shouldn't need to bury the barrel at all if he gets the right size and shaped one. The moment he taps into the side of the pond he's got water flow. That's the beauty of an above ground pond. Since my pond is completely under ground, I had to dig. DR&W shouldn't have to dig...he just needs to tap the pond on the side so his BD can be plumbed on the side to get that water to rush in. Hopefully, he's got it plumbed on the side when he built the pond--otherwise i don't see how he can bust through block now.

He doesn't need to get a tall barrel, he can get one that's smaller since his real purpose for it is as pre-filter with a bit of additional bio assistance. He needs to get a barrel that is just 5 or so inches taller than the highest point of the top of the pond wall. That way the barrel won't overflow, as the water in the barrel will find its own natural level with that of the pond.

My design will be the same, except I won't have a skimmer since I won't be building near trees.

[D&RW]

Thanks you guys for your thoughts and ideas. I think maybe my set up is not amenable to a barrel filter. I darn sure am not doing any more digging. Not without a machine.

I am new to external pumps, but I have read long ago that pumps push better than pull. That being said, the folks that sold me the pump said it should draw water just fine from the set up I have now. their only concern was too much flow through the UV on the return flow, but I'm going to check that and adjust as needed.

As for filtration, I'm starting to see it a bit differently. Clearly the matting in the bottom drain was a stopgap and too much of a PIA to continue. The way I see it, I need an inline filter, but not necessarily a barrel filter per se. I'm really not trying to add bacterial filtration, rather just protect the pump from too much detritus.

I'm starting to envision a closed system, possibly a barrel, but smaller than 55 gallons. I would turn it on its side and put 2 in bulkheads at either end. Inside the barrel would go coarse filtration material of some kind. Still have to take it apart to clean the filter material, but way less hassle and much more filtration with the outside filter.

[koikeepr]

D&RW said:

I'm starting to envision a closed system, possibly a barrel, but smaller than 55 gallons. I would turn it on its side and put 2 in bulkheads at either end. Inside the barrel would go coarse filtration material of some kind. Still have to take it apart to clean the filter material, but way less hassle and much more filtration with the outside filter.

Well, that's what we're talking about. Something smaller like a 25 gallon barrel would be fine...maybe even smaller if you're not wanting bio filtration. I don't see why you need it to be closed, however. That's nother PITA. Why can't you have an open top?