2 pleco + 2 koi + 2 goldfish = 2 dead kois? What to do next?

[rayxu]

Hey Guys

I'm new here and, experience wise, new to fish raising. Im hoping if you guys could please provide some insight into my situation.

Just some basics -
My pond is about 5' x 5' x 2.5' (LxWxD) with only a fountain in the middle. For the past 10 years, we've been able to keep a mix of koi and goldfishes in there without them dying unexplainably. Because I am a full-time student and my parents are not available most of the time, we dont really maintain the pond that much...we only fill it when the water runs low and clean the filter when it clogs up. We dont feed the fish since they just eat the algae (they just grow slower, but otherwise still healthy, as seen by the naked eye) nor do we change out the water. Its pretty much a self-sustaining environment. We fill the pond by first filling a 5 gallon bucket and let it sit in the Texas sun for about a week to dechlorinate it, then we dump it into the pond. The pump's filter is just one of those plastic sponge-like filters fitted on the intake of the pump.

I started off with 3 koi fishes from petsmart and all 3 /did/ live a rather healthy and stable life for the past 5 years until now... One of them is mostly black, another one is white, and the third one is a mix of red, black, and white.

Currently, in Texas, the temps are still between 70 deg F low and 90+ deg F highs right now. So I know that my fish should be active.

Here's a time line of whats been happening in order:

1. 2 weeks to 2 months ago: Noticed the mix-colored koi dissappeared...No trace of the carcass, assumed it was an animal that fished it out during the night.
2. 2 weeks ago: Bought a common pleco at petsmart. It died the next day in the pond, noticed that it had finrot. Went back to petsmart and noticed that they had some dead plecos in there tanks too, but they did not bother to remove the carcasses even after it was all decomposed, white, and mostly eaten. I also bought 2 small goldfishes.
3. Around the time that the petsmart pleco died: I noticed the two koi fish had some red discoloration (not open wounds or anything) around the gill areas. Assumed it was probably irritation caused by the floating bunny algae in the water because the water did get a little stirred...
4. A few days after: Redness went away. Both koi fish become lethargic and stay at the bottom where there is minimal water current (mostly in the corner of the pond).
5. 1 week ago: did water test at Exotic Aquatics (http://exoticaquaticstexas.com/). Nitrite, Nitrate, and ammonia all zero. pH was around 7.5.
6. 1 week ago: bought two common plecos from Exotic Aquatics, this time I made sure what I bought is healthy. Added into pond.
7. 6 days ago: white koi fish dissappears, couldnt find carcass
8. 4 days ago: found this koi fish carcass in a blind corner of the pond on the bottom. Removed it. Honestly I do not know if this was the mixed color or white koi fish...it looked too big to be the white one but then again I dont know if a dead fish can stay intact for 2 weeks... Anyways one side of it looked like it was bleached white, and the other side was silverish with this circular wound on the side.
9. 2 days ago: black koi fish floats on top of the pond, no movement, but still alive because gills were moving....yeah its going to die soon. I have attached pictures of it at this point.
10. yesterday: black koi fish dies. Noticed some scales missing towards the back end, tail fin seems to have seperated a bit, and there are several scale-less orange areas on the fish.
11. yesterday: water test at same place. Again, zero nitrate, nitrite, and ammonia. 7.5 pH.
12. today: Both koi dead, gold fishes healthy and active, both plecos healthy and active. (Why did the koi die but the goldfishes are healthy???)

I know that ppl have said that keeping koi and pleco together is not a good idea, but then again there are also those who have done it successfuly. Eversince putting the pleco's in, I've been coming out each night at around midnight with a flashlight just to observe for a few minutes...Theres so much algae keeping the plecos busy that I have never seen it even near the koi fish.

Because I do not know how long that fish carcass was in my pond, I wont rule out that that the carcass possibly contaminated the water and thus stressed out the kois.

I've also heard from a local petstore salesperson that plecos can carry specific diseases/parasites that would harm the koi fishes... He suggested I use anti-bacterial medication (see attached picture) plus water changes, but I want to know what exactly caused what first before applying the meds and adding in new fish.

I plan to add in more fish to replace what I've lost... I'll go with goldfishes if thats what I have to do to keep fishes from dying in my pond.

Assuming it is casued by external disease brought in by the plecos...what procedures do you guys think I should take to first neutralize the bacteria before adding in more fish?

Just curious, I dont understand why the goldfish would be healthy while the koi fishes are extremely ill?

(Yes, just in case you guys think I am a negligent pond/koi owner...feel free to do call me that, I already feel ashamed of letting my 2 koi fishes die :redface: ...but like I said, no one really has the time to maintain the pond but nor do I want to give it up...its sort of a family tradition thing.)

fishin4cars: I read a forum post that you wrote describing what to look for...and I think this is exactly what I am experiencing. You seem to be knowledgable with this kind of situation, hence why I joined this forum to post this. Thanks for supporting the forum!! I honestly would not know which other forum to post in if I had not ran across your post...

Thanks guys!

 

[Waterbug]

Thanks for the detailed info.

No need to feel ashamed, most ponds are kept like yours or way worst.

Even with the detailed info there's no way to know why the Koi died and the Goldfish haven't. If you'd like some guesses...

5 yr old Koi should be in the 16" range for ponds where they aren't fed that often. With decent feeding they'd be in the 20-25" range. How long were yours?

Your size pond, that number and kinds of fish, never fed, well that's going to be fish just hanging on. Goldfish are smaller than Koi. Less food required to stay alive so it won't be a bad guess that nutrition played a roll. I wouldn't expect the Goldfish to have a long life either. Number of calories and the nutritional value, algae isn't high on the list.

Bringing in new fish without quarantining them first is always a high risk. Not sure how "you made sure" the second Pecos were healthy.

Your pond is indeed a "pretty much a self-sustaining environment"...but that means the environment eliminates excess fish load, which it just did. I'd assume if you keep adding more fish than your pond can handle it would balance things out again in the form of fewer fish.

Your pond is about 468 gal, with no food and little maintenance I'd guess the sustainable fish load would be one Goldfish. Two if you didn't care about severe stunting. Stunting BTW is not the sign of a healthy fish. Stunted fish can live a long, but reduced, time. As the stunting is more severe the life expectancy decreases. It's like seeing a nutritionally deprived 16 old kid who weights 50 lbs, the odds aren't good. Getting just enough to stay alive doesn't mean healthy enough to survive the common cold.

 

[rayxu]

Thanks for the detailed info.

No need to feel ashamed, most ponds are kept like yours or way worst.

Even with the detailed info there's no way to know why the Koi died and the Goldfish haven't. If you'd like some guesses...

5 yr old Koi should be in the 16" range for ponds where they aren't fed that often. With decent feeding they'd be in the 20-25" range. How long were yours?

Your size pond, that number and kinds of fish, never fed, well that's going to be fish just hanging on. Goldfish are smaller than Koi. Less food required to stay alive so it won't be a bad guess that nutrition played a roll. I wouldn't expect the Goldfish to have a long life either. Number of calories and the nutritional value, algae isn't high on the list.

Bringing in new fish without quarantining them first is always a high risk. Not sure how "you made sure" the second Pecos were healthy.

Your pond is indeed a "pretty much a self-sustaining environment"...but that means the environment eliminates excess fish load, which it just did. I'd assume if you keep adding more fish than your pond can handle it would balance things out again in the form of fewer fish.

Your pond is about 468 gal, with no food and little maintenance I'd guess the sustainable fish load would be one Goldfish. Two if you didn't care about severe stunting. Stunting BTW is not the sign of a healthy fish. Stunted fish can live a long, but reduced, time. As the stunting is more severe the life expectancy decreases. It's like seeing a nutritionally deprived 16 old kid who weights 50 lbs, the odds aren't good. Getting just enough to stay alive doesn't mean healthy enough to survive the common cold.

Thanks for the reply! Mine was...well...less than 10 inches. It didn't really grow much at all while it was in the pond (because we didnt feed them - so this was sort of expected)...in fact the goldfishes before the koi grew faster than the kois. IIRC, when we bought the koi, we bought the ones that wont grow as large. I think the pet store listed those to grow a max of 12 inches....

I remember we used to have a total of 5 goldfishes in the pond at one point, 3 large ones (about 8" long each) donated by a friend and 2 small ones that we bought from the store that grew to almost a foot long within 1 or 2 years. All of them lived just fine, active and no obvious problems. Again, we did not feed them. Then a nasty storm hit our area several years later and, I suspect, the hail killed most of the goldfish...

Bringing in new fish without QTR'ing? We've always introduced new fish without a problem by just dumping it into the pond... I'll lhave to look that up.

When I bought the petsmart pleco, I noticed that it had some small holes in its fins. Because the last time I ever saw a pleco in real life I was a little kid, I asked the salesperson and he said it was natural (lesson learned - their goal is to sell)...so I trusted him. When I went back, I noticed that there were dead plecos in the same tank that the salesperson had gotten mine out of...and they didnt bother to remove the dead ones. Then I went to ExoticAquatics - they're a dedicated aquarium store with a good reputation (based on the reviews). The plecos there I saw had no holes in the fins and were pretty active.

If the cause of death cant really be determined, what about the effects of having 2 pleco's in the pond? One person told me that although the water quality is good, it may be that the plecos are using too much of the ecosystem... I'm not exactly sure what he meant by that.

Right now, my goal is to see if I can possibly add more goldfish/koi into the pond without them dying. And I will be sure to invest some effort into feeding the fish at least once a day too. But, then again, I don't know if the conditions are safe to add more fish since all of the unexplained stuff has happened. Maybe the plecos did stress out the ecosystem and deprived the koi of their resources? In that case I think feeding would help. But what if the plecos did introduce some foreign disease/bacteria that infected my koi? Then what do I do? etc...

 

[addy1]

Just curious, I dont understand why the goldfish would be healthy while the koi fishes are extremely ill?

koi are a lot touchier about water conditions then goldfish. They usually are the first to die if the water gets bad.


Welcome to our group, the people here will try and help you turn your pond around and make it good for your fish.

 

[sissy]

Koi need lots of filtering of water and surely need deeper water to keep them cool .I keep my ph at a steady 9 and never try to go under 8 with them .But have 2 home made filters going and 2 pumps for lots of aeration to keep water fresh and clear .In pond filters are really stupid and wonder who invented them .The waste stays in the water and that never made sense to me .* years and not a dead fish yet so I am doing OK I guess

 

[Waterbug]

I think the pet store listed those to grow a max of 12 inches....

I've never heard of Koi like that. Perhaps the store was just trying to sell more fish. Koi normally fetch a much higher price but many people might not buy them if they knew they grew to twice that size. And probably they're correct for the market they're selling fish into, 12" might have been a reasonable estimate.

Bringing in new fish without QTR'ing? We've always introduced new fish without a problem by just dumping it into the pond...

Luck and skill are two different things.

If the cause of death cant really be determined, what about the effects of having 2 pleco's in the pond? One person told me that although the water quality is good, it may be that the plecos are using too much of the ecosystem... I'm not exactly sure what he meant by that.

I'm not sure you're suppose to understand what "using too much of the ecosystem" means. People like to say stuff like that and "out of balance", etc. It sounds good but doesn't really mean much because it could mean anything.

I can tell you this...Plecostomuses can grow to 24" and are algae eaters. Because of that I'd assume they could consume the available algae faster than the Goldfish and the Plecostomuses would live and the Goldfish would slowly starve. Just as the Goldfish were able to win over the Koi. But by winter the Plecostomuses will probably die, so the Goldfish might be able to hold on until you bought more Plecostomuses next spring.

Right now, my goal is to see if I can possibly add more goldfish/koi into the pond without them dying. And I will be sure to invest some effort into feeding the fish at least once a day too.

Now for the other side of the coin...Not feeding your fish may have been what kept them alive for 5 yrs. That is the impressive thing about water gardens is how bullet proof they are. Once you start to introduce food things change. Fish produce more waste, the waste converters start using more carbon and O2. This can create other issues that are much more risky in the shorter term.

But, then again, I don't know if the conditions are safe to add more fish since all of the unexplained stuff has happened. Maybe the plecos did stress out the ecosystem and deprived the koi of their resources? In that case I think feeding would help. But what if the plecos did introduce some foreign disease/bacteria that infected my koi? Then what do I do? etc...

You can certainly buy treatments to kill pretty much anything you think you have in your pond. Lot's of people do this. Not uncommon for this to result in dead fish because directions are rarely followed.

Many diseases, bacteria, viruses and even parasites can be present in most ponds. The bedrock of keeping fish is keeping fish healthy so that they can fight off attack, just like people do. As fish are stressed they're less able to fight off these things and at some point succumb. You stepping in and trying to kill attackers for weak fish is a game that's difficult to win.

Here is a little video from a fish Vet that covers some basics. You had most of these and your fixes will add a few more check marks.

One last thing...your water test results are perfect...I mean really perfect...I mean text book to the dot perfect. Ever watch the Star Trek when Bones would scan some alien and say "life signs are perfect...a little too perfect". That's the same feeling I get when a pond's test results are perfect. Not saying you made up the numbers, just saying I get suspicious. On the one hand there are reasons for your numbers to be perfect, like not adding food can improve numbers. On the other hand zero nitrate is fishy to me. 10 year old pond that's just been topped off and zero nitrate. In a green pond I can see that, but yours didn't look very green. Possible however the algae could have consumed all nitrates. But the stand out is pH. Dallas has pretty hard water as I remember. Pretty hot there too so lots of evaporation. In 10 years I'd assume the pond to be very hard (KH and GH), but 7.5 pH tells me it isn't very hard at all. So something else may be going on. Bad test kit, poor testing skill, I don't know. If you do have stable 7.5 pH with no effort you are one lucky pond keeper. If the tests were all correct and KH is low I'd have to assume the 7.5 readings just happen to be what it was at that specific time. An hour later pH may have been much lower or much higher. A KH test would tell you.

 

[rayxu]

I've never heard of Koi like that. Perhaps the store was just trying to sell more fish. Koi normally fetch a much higher price but many people might not buy them if they knew they grew to twice that size. And probably they're correct for the market they're selling fish into, 12" might have been a reasonable estimate.


Luck and skill are two different things.


I'm not sure you're suppose to understand what "using too much of the ecosystem" means. People like to say stuff like that and "out of balance", etc. It sounds good but doesn't really mean much because it could mean anything.

I can tell you this...Plecostomuses can grow to 24" and are algae eaters. Because of that I'd assume they could consume the available algae faster than the Goldfish and the Plecostomuses would live and the Goldfish would slowly starve. Just as the Goldfish were able to win over the Koi. But by winter the Plecostomuses will probably die, so the Goldfish might be able to hold on until you bought more Plecostomuses next spring.


Now for the other side of the coin...Not feeding your fish may have been what kept them alive for 5 yrs. That is the impressive thing about water gardens is how bullet proof they are. Once you start to introduce food things change. Fish produce more waste, the waste converters start using more carbon and O2. This can create other issues that are much more risky in the shorter term.


You can certainly buy treatments to kill pretty much anything you think you have in your pond. Lot's of people do this. Not uncommon for this to result in dead fish because directions are rarely followed.

Many diseases, bacteria, viruses and even parasites can be present in most ponds. The bedrock of keeping fish is keeping fish healthy so that they can fight off attack, just like people do. As fish are stressed they're less able to fight off these things and at some point succumb. You stepping in and trying to kill attackers for weak fish is a game that's difficult to win.

Here is a little video from a fish Vet that covers some basics. You had most of these and your fixes will add a few more check marks.

One last thing...your water test results are perfect...I mean really perfect...I mean text book to the dot perfect. Ever watch the Star Trek when Bones would scan some alien and say "life signs are perfect...a little too perfect". That's the same feeling I get when a pond's test results are perfect. Not saying you made up the numbers, just saying I get suspicious. On the one hand there are reasons for your numbers to be perfect, like not adding food can improve numbers. On the other hand zero nitrate is fishy to me. 10 year old pond that's just been topped off and zero nitrate. In a green pond I can see that, but yours didn't look very green. Possible however the algae could have consumed all nitrates. But the stand out is pH. Dallas has pretty hard water as I remember. Pretty hot there too so lots of evaporation. In 10 years I'd assume the pond to be very hard (KH and GH), but 7.5 pH tells me it isn't very hard at all. So something else may be going on. Bad test kit, poor testing skill, I don't know. If you do have stable 7.5 pH with no effort you are one lucky pond keeper. If the tests were all correct and KH is low I'd have to assume the 7.5 readings just happen to be what it was at that specific time. An hour later pH may have been much lower or much higher. A KH test would tell you.

Thanks for the detailed reply.

My pond is 'not that green'? Thats probably due to the camera on my phone...but for the past few years theres been like at least an inch deep of bunny algae, string algae all along the wall, and carpet algae on some parts of the floor. Look down and its all green (not the water, at least). Whats interesting is that this used to be a lot worse before that storm hit and had to completely change out the water for pond maitnence... Back then the water was a complete green murk; we couldnt see most of the fish during the summertime.

I will see if I can get a KH test.

With the feedback that you've been giving me, I think I can conclude three possible ways that my koi died (consider this as good as gueses):
1) The koi has been unhealthy all along due to lack of food. I've read that plecos tend to seek out sick fish as easy targets so they went for the koi...
2) The pleco's did carry some sort of disease into the pond and killed the (already unhealthy) koi.
3) The pleco's start competeing with the only food source with the koi, which stressed them out eventually.

Basically, I think it all boils down to lack of food for the koi which casued them to have a weak immune system.

So here is what I'm thinking of doing:
1) At worst I'm assuming there probably is some sort of harmful bacteria/parasite in the water, especially since we dont maintain it a lot. So I'm thinking about using an anti-bacterial, such as the one shown in the picture. Then again, I dont want to treat nothing and risk the 2 plecos and goldfishes in there. (FYI the 2 goldfishes are still doing fine) What do you think about doing this?
2) Restock with a koi or two to make sure the pond is stable again. We can only afford the petstore brand.
3) Feed the koi at least once a day
4) monitor the water for maybe a month or 2 to make sure no params changed for the worse due to the introduction of food.

In the case that the water quality does take a south turn, I have time maybe once a month or so to remove the gunk on the bottom of the pond. Unfortunately I dont think I have time for water changes. Maybe adding a plant or two?

Thanks again guys!

 

[rayxu]

Koi need lots of filtering of water and surely need deeper water to keep them cool .I keep my ph at a steady 9 and never try to go under 8 with them .But have 2 home made filters going and 2 pumps for lots of aeration to keep water fresh and clear .In pond filters are really stupid and wonder who invented them .The waste stays in the water and that never made sense to me .* years and not a dead fish yet so I am doing OK I guess

I'm guessing you meant to say "8 years and not a dead fish..."? Wow, thats really impressive

I'm not sure about keeping them cool...it looks like as if they like the 100 degree summers better since they're all swimming around. They start to go into 'hibernation' when the temp drops below 70s ish deg F.

 

[Mmathis]

What's "bunny algae?"

 

[rayxu]

What's "bunny algae?"

I remember someone else saying it...

Its just like dust bunnies. Except its algae and it eventually settles to the bottom of the pond.

 

[Waterbug]

With the feedback that you've been giving me, I think I can conclude three possible ways that my koi died (consider this as good as gueses):
1) The koi has been unhealthy all along due to lack of food. I've read that plecos tend to seek out sick fish as easy targets so they went for the koi...
2) The pleco's did carry some sort of disease into the pond and killed the (already unhealthy) koi.
3) The pleco's start competeing with the only food source with the koi, which stressed them out eventually.

1 & 2 sound reasonable. I didn't think the Plecos were in there that long. Could be mistaken. Doesn't really matter.

Basically, I think it all boils down to lack of food for the koi which casued them to have a weak immune system.

I really know very little about your pond...I couldn't even tell if the water was green or not. These things are difficult to determine in person, impossible via some text. All I do is pick out the biggest problem I see in the text and start there. So all the stuff I wrote is just stuff, maybe related to your situation, maybe not.

1) At worst I'm assuming there probably is some sort of harmful bacteria/parasite in the water, especially since we dont maintain it a lot. So I'm thinking about using an anti-bacterial, such as the one shown in the picture. Then again, I dont want to treat nothing and risk the 2 plecos and goldfishes in there. (FYI the 2 goldfishes are still doing fine) What do you think about doing this?

Has to be your call. My first choice is always to improve conditions. When everything is good and there's still a problem I then try to hunt down the actual problem. Then I'd consider treatment. For me treatment would be in a hospital tank or small pond, something I can control better..only because I don't have a lot of experience treating fish. If it's a pond wide problem I'd remove the fish and do a seriously lethal treatment, like potassium permanent for example. If I make a mistake in a small tank and fish start to get into trouble I can get them out fast and back into the pond. If there's a problem treating an entire pond I'm screwed...well the fish are screwed.

2) Restock with a koi or two to make sure the pond is stable again. We can only afford the petstore brand.

You already know the quarantine deal...like playing Russian roulette. Pet store koi is just putting a couple of more bullets in the gun. Having said that I've certainly purchased feeder Goldfish from a crappy store and just dumped them in a pond. Normally 1/2 die in a few days. The rest went on for years. It's a case by case call.

Hopefully you've watched the videos on Koi Beginner. If not here's one on stocking levels.

For your size pond and Doc Johnson's guidelines you could have 1 Koi and no other fish to be at his "easy" level which from what you've said sounds like your desired level. 2 Koi max at the "good" level. These are reasonable guidelines imo.

In the case that the water quality does take a south turn, I have time maybe once a month or so to remove the gunk on the bottom of the pond. Unfortunately I dont think I have time for water changes.

You can set up an automatic 24/7 water changing system for very little money, like $10-20 and little effort. It's a trickle water change, Dr Johnson talks about it in a video.

Water going south from over stocking would primarily take the form of high ammonia and/or nitrite. This can happen fast. That's what you monitor. Next biggest problem is low KH. Easy and cheap to fix with baking soda. In both of these cases a pond can look like Rocky Mountain spring water and be deadly.

After that would be too much waste in the pond. Rarely a problem for most water gardens because of low stocking levels. In these ponds muck can actually be helping the fish survive other issues. As stock levels increase so does the risk from muck. For high stocking levels the pond has to be almost spotless 24/7.

Maybe adding a plant or two?

That's your call. It won't help the fish any. You already have the best pond plant from a fish's perspective, algae. The potted plants do very little good unless planted in mass in a veggie or bog filter and even then they don't do a lot compared to algae.

 

[CometKeith]

I agree with above comments. A few additional points. You should never add new fish to a pond when you detect the water quality is not good and there may be disease. You are better off waiting until the water quality improves and all the remaining fish are healthy. I would not trust the store tests and get your own test kits. Also the video hits it on the head about bioloads. Doc Johnson did not make this up and it it accepted among most experienced ponders. If you have 25 inches of fish for a well filtered pond of your size (500 gallons) that would be an average bioload. Anything more and it will require more work, and if you have over 50 inches it will be very difficult to keep the water quality good and the fish healthy without extensive filtration.

 

[Dave 54]

May we ask a question here please?just where did you get your information on fish keeping the koi ws more than stunted it was starving poor thing though strangely we dont blame you,for this " this is a classic example what we are on about when we say reading up on your subject has to come into play before buying your fish then at least then all the fish get a decent shot at life", did you know that over a million koi and goldfish exported to the UK, US. EU every year, many never see the end of their first year so here are some pointers for you..... 1)Reading how to keep them is the very first thing you should have thought of buy a book on the basics of koi and goldfish keeping, learn what these books say by heart, then at least if you have problems then at least you'll be able to cope with them . 2)You must never mix tropical and coldwater no matter where in the world you live be it texas or Lancashire 3)Koi require a specific diet for their growth colouration and health and well being , "we have a koi that is now 26 years old that we rescued from a person mixing coldwater with tropical it was in with an Oscar and when we rescued it it was in a rather sorry state to say the least". It is what you would term stunted but has led a very happy life with our koi next year will be its 27th year with us and it is still going strong we call it tiny as it's only over the 6" mark and has grown no larger so you can turn them arround sadly they never grow into their full potential. 4) Buy a filtration unit prefrably with a UV-C ( unltra violate Clarifier) of around 15watt.or higher....... 5) Learn to maintain your filtration and learn how to do decent waterchanges i;e around 30% each fortnight to month. 5) Test your water perameters on a weekly basis take notes in a book of everything you do 6) Never overfeed your fish, just as much as they can eat in 5 minutes is the best , also give them a no feed day from time to time. 7) Never buy koi from an outlet like you did, please seek out a proper koi dealership , koi are not as expensive as you think ...... 9) If you have a problem please dont be embarrased to do so someone is always on hand to give knowedge freely , the quicker you act the better the koi's chance of surviving. These petsores in the UK are getting quite a bad press, they are a bad idea and do untold damage to animals in their supposed care . rgrds Dave
It's all well and good putting up the Doc Johnston videos but a person has to first have an idea what he is talking about dont you think ?

 

[Waterbug]

Dr Johnson's videos are aimed at new Koi keepers. Dave, whether you judge these videos to be a good source of info or not is your decision. If other people get useful info from these videos that's their business. I can understand commenting on specific bits of info in the videos, I don't agree with every single nugget. But I can't say I see the point of just completely discounting all of Dr Johnson's videos. Comes across as rather small minded. In the big scheme of things I'm more inclined to give more credence to a person trained in Koi care, who does this for a living, has taken the time to make and post videos on the subject and therefore allowing for review, than I do to any "hey, I just signed up in a pond forum...listen to me...I'm an expert, trust me" dude. Now I might be completely wrong. I've come to this conclusion based on reading many forums, on many subjects, over many years. Just kind of seems to me that the untrained, inexperienced people who think they know a lot really turns out to not know much of anything.

 

[Ruben Miranda]

Hello
First (Not sure is it was said or not) tried to read threw all and did not see it mentioned.
Those pelcos will not survive out in a pond they are tropical and like warm water and will not survive the winter.
If you told the person who sold you the pelcos that they where going in a outdoor pond then shame on them for selling them to you.

Adding more fish to a small pond with very little filtration is never ever a great idea more fish more waste product even if you are not feeding.
With a low filtration system also means there was very little good bactria and then when you had a dead fish in there the ammonia spiked and weakend your fish even more.

I would also point you to your first pic you posted look at that white spot that looks like a hole that looks like a pleco grabbed on and did some scrapping.

Ruben M.

 

[CountryEscape]

I would be careful putting in a UV clarifier, as it seems like your algae is the main food source, and doesn't a UV Clarifier remove or kill algae?
I think Sissy hit your problem on the nose - you have no filtration. Having a filter on a pump that shoots water out as a fountain is not considered a filter to me. It simply keeps your pump from getting clogged. No filtration for your water.
Why are you not able to do water changes? If you have chlorine in your water, there is a cheap dechlorinator you can buy to put in the water and it will be ready to go into the pond. You do NOT have to keep putting a bucket of water out for days to dechlorinate it. Use the chemicals for this purpose.
Agree totally with Comet Keith above, do NOT add more fish until your current fish are no longer stressed, or you'll never figure out the problem!
I've had plecos in with my goldfish and koi, no problem. Just had one in there, and my ponds are larger (4500 and 2700 gallons). The difference is that the tropical (pleco) cannot survive in water that goes below about 60 degrees, so I had to remove it. Others have mollies and other tropical fish in their outdoor ponds, with goldfish, no adverse problems. Difference, again, is that you cannot leave the tropicals in there forever, unless you are in the south (I think maybe you ARE!) and your water temps don't go below 60 degrees. Tropical fish like to have their water around 72-74 degrees, on average.
Be careful going from not feeding at all to feeding once a day. Another possible tragedy. If you decide to feed, do it slowly, maybe once a week, then twice a week, then 3 times a week, but only what they will eat within 5 minutes, as mentioned above.
I would also be careful about cleaning out everything on the bottom of your pond. As stated above, it could be helping the fish rather than hurting them. BUT, if your ammonia or nitrate levels go up, that will have to be looked into.
And, if you are trusting the pet store to do your water tests, you are not checking your water levels often enough. Get a good set with all the test bottles, and test your pond twice a day, same time every day, for a week before you decide if your parameters are as good as you think they are. I'm hoping that they ARE, but agree that old test kits can be wrong, and pet stores don't always use good test kids. Going to the more refined store was a good thing, but remember, stores want to sell you supplies. Not always the best thing, but sometimes necessary evils as well. Don't treat for something you are not sure you have a problem with! Adding chemicals is doing just that ... adding chemicals. BUT, don't do a total water change either.
Good luck, and hope all the pointers are helping and not overwhelming you. Seems like you are really picking up the important pointers. Not that any of mine are more important than the others' ... they are NOT! But, had to put my two cents worth in as well. It's good to get told I was wrong, too, and I welcome the pointers myself!

 

[Dave 54]

Dr Johnson's videos are aimed at new Koi keepers. Dave, whether you judge these videos to be a good source of info or not is your decision. If other people get useful info from these videos that's their business. I can understand commenting on specific bits of info in the videos, I don't agree with every single nugget. But I can't say I see the point of just completely discounting all of Dr Johnson's videos. Comes across as rather small minded. In the big scheme of things I'm more inclined to give more credence to a person trained in Koi care, who does this for a living, has taken the time to make and post videos on the subject and therefore allowing for review, than I do to any "hey, I just signed up in a pond forum...listen to me...I'm an expert, trust me" dude. Now I might be completely wrong. I've come to this conclusion based on reading many forums, on many subjects, over many years. Just kind of seems to me that the untrained, inexperienced people who think they know a lot really turns out to not know much of anything.

Waterbug you are quite right but Doctor Johnson you must be aware he has also has written some spectacular books which takes the novice and gives them a firmer grounding in their hobby..
Though I'm not a goldfish owner I do have a copy of his spectacular book co written by his goodself and a chap by the name of Richard E. Hess. Called fancy goldfish A complete guide to care and collecting Photos by Fred Rozenzweig ISBN 1859749577 just to give me a grounding for goldfish questions that folks may need help with
As we both know he has written a really great koi book recently updated "2006", which is on my Xmas Wish list this year.
Last year we got a copy of Fundamentals of ornamental Fish Health by Helen E Roberts ISBN 9780813814018.
Which really opened my eyes especially on zoonotic exposure to fish and what exactly we can catch from them.
It lists well over eight things we can catch, at least one ending in our own deaths up.until then I used to think it was about two things that crossed over the species barrier and were non fatal ohh how wrong I was on that.
Video's are all well and good my friend to those that are at least grounded in the hobby , this poor person was working from what he was told at the petstore and as I've already stated here in the UK the petstore chain has been found very wanting in all quaters not just fish
We have by far the tightest Animal Welfare regulations in the world here in the UK where the person can be charged for not giving their fish /birds/animals due care and attention can face Jail or fines and ifetime bans on keeping any pet in any form.
In other words it is up to us to recognise that you have a problem and must rectify it immediately or face criminal charges by the authorities for not trying to recify it .
Ruben I did in a round about way mention that you should never mix tropicals with coldwater fish.
Rayux did mention that nobody acctually told him it was unwise to add the two together but he had heard it was ok from somewhere yet he was never corrected by either outlet about this.

rgrds

Dave

 

[CountryEscape]

Dave, I'm still confused why cold water fish and tropicals cannot co-exist in warm waters? I have warm "tropical" waters in the summer where I live in the Midwest, and pleco is fine in with my koi/goldfish who can also reside in the warm waters. In my opinion, the tropicals (not all, mind you, but some) can co-exist, as long as the owner knows to remove the tropicals when the "tropical warmth" of the water ends in the late summer, early fall. Is this what you are trying to point out, or is there some reason that the two cannot co-exist for health reasons? Thanks!

 

[Ruben Miranda]

Hello
Tropicals
Need want a consitant temp 79 to 81 D and in the tropics they get that.
They will get sick/not do well even die if the temps go up and down extreamly
Example: Spring comes around the water gets to 79 D perfect you put your healthy Pelco in it is doing great.
2 weeks in the weather gets real hot or real cold and the water temp flucuates and you could end up with a problem.
Not to say people don't do it and have luck with it but it is not a recomended practice and more times then not it goes bad.
Plus Pelcos will get big and they can get agrisive and start going after the fish it is a big chance.
I would have to check it out but I don't remember pelcos being big on eating string algea could be wrong as I said not sure.

In anycase with the above and the system in place no more fish should be added MHO

Ruben

 

[Dave 54]

Dave, I'm still confused why cold water fish and tropicals cannot co-exist in warm waters? I have warm "tropical" waters in the summer where I live in the Midwest, and pleco is fine in with my koi/goldfish who can also reside in the warm waters. In my opinion, the tropicals (not all, mind you, but some) can co-exist, as long as the owner knows to remove the tropicals when the "tropical warmth" of the water ends in the late summer, early fall. Is this what you are trying to point out, or is there some reason that the two cannot co-exist for health reasons? Thanks!

It's quie simple as Ruben states tropicals need a constant temperature, in the tropical world have you ever seen in the shop they normally state which fish can peacefully go exist with another ?
They do this for a reason because in the wld differing genus of fish will attack and harm each other !!!!.....
Well the same applies to Koi and Pleco's.
You hear of them time and time again leaving large scars on koi because they rasp onto the side of the koi the larger they get.......
Then you have the possibility of different desases and viruses skipping the species barrier, I'm not saying it will happen but there is always that possibility .
Look at the cane toad in Australia they first brought them in to do a specific job but they got it wrong , now the cahe toad is spreading across Australia why they have no natural no natural preditor this is because everything including salt water crocodiles die if they attempt to eat them.
Did you know that in all but two states in Australia and all of New Zealand koi are banned why?
Quite simply because they are considered pest!!!!...... now they want to introduce the Koi Herpes Virus to take care of that little problem.
So you see what I'm trying to get at, they are kept apart for a reason probably an extreeme example with the cane toad but the koi are killing of the natural fish of those two countrys why because they are bottom feeders and they curn over the bottom of the pond making it extreemely difficult that the natural species to exist perhaps they need clear water and gravel to exist the reasons are as long as your arm, you may even think up a reason that I havent yet .
In the far east there is an accident waiting to happen where what we would term monster fish that extreme anglers never have a chance to catch are kept together in a country that isn't theirs, so what happens if there is a flood for some reason and they escape it would be a nightmare senario..
Its seen all around the world accidents waiting to happen what about the killer bee for instance simply look to where they have got to in the US then think to get there they have taken over much of South America too. Dont tempt fate it often isnt worth it when pandora is out of the box its hard to get her back in....... .

rgrds

Dave