2 pleco + 2 koi + 2 goldfish = 2 dead kois? What to do next?

Joined
Mar 20, 2011
Messages
7,257
Reaction score
4,819
Location
near Effingham, Illinois
Hardiness Zone
5b
I would be careful putting in a UV clarifier, as it seems like your algae is the main food source, and doesn't a UV Clarifier remove or kill algae?
I think Sissy hit your problem on the nose - you have no filtration. Having a filter on a pump that shoots water out as a fountain is not considered a filter to me. It simply keeps your pump from getting clogged. No filtration for your water.
Why are you not able to do water changes? If you have chlorine in your water, there is a cheap dechlorinator you can buy to put in the water and it will be ready to go into the pond. You do NOT have to keep putting a bucket of water out for days to dechlorinate it. Use the chemicals for this purpose.
Agree totally with Comet Keith above, do NOT add more fish until your current fish are no longer stressed, or you'll never figure out the problem!
I've had plecos in with my goldfish and koi, no problem. Just had one in there, and my ponds are larger (4500 and 2700 gallons). The difference is that the tropical (pleco) cannot survive in water that goes below about 60 degrees, so I had to remove it. Others have mollies and other tropical fish in their outdoor ponds, with goldfish, no adverse problems. Difference, again, is that you cannot leave the tropicals in there forever, unless you are in the south (I think maybe you ARE!) and your water temps don't go below 60 degrees. Tropical fish like to have their water around 72-74 degrees, on average.
Be careful going from not feeding at all to feeding once a day. Another possible tragedy. If you decide to feed, do it slowly, maybe once a week, then twice a week, then 3 times a week, but only what they will eat within 5 minutes, as mentioned above.
I would also be careful about cleaning out everything on the bottom of your pond. As stated above, it could be helping the fish rather than hurting them. BUT, if your ammonia or nitrate levels go up, that will have to be looked into.
And, if you are trusting the pet store to do your water tests, you are not checking your water levels often enough. Get a good set with all the test bottles, and test your pond twice a day, same time every day, for a week before you decide if your parameters are as good as you think they are. I'm hoping that they ARE, but agree that old test kits can be wrong, and pet stores don't always use good test kids. Going to the more refined store was a good thing, but remember, stores want to sell you supplies. Not always the best thing, but sometimes necessary evils as well. Don't treat for something you are not sure you have a problem with! Adding chemicals is doing just that ... adding chemicals. BUT, don't do a total water change either.
Good luck, and hope all the pointers are helping and not overwhelming you. Seems like you are really picking up the important pointers. Not that any of mine are more important than the others' ... they are NOT! But, had to put my two cents worth in as well. It's good to get told I was wrong, too, and I welcome the pointers myself!
 
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
6,275
Reaction score
2,817
Location
Plymouth
Hardiness Zone
7a
Country
United Kingdom
Dr Johnson's videos are aimed at new Koi keepers. Dave, whether you judge these videos to be a good source of info or not is your decision. If other people get useful info from these videos that's their business. I can understand commenting on specific bits of info in the videos, I don't agree with every single nugget. But I can't say I see the point of just completely discounting all of Dr Johnson's videos. Comes across as rather small minded. In the big scheme of things I'm more inclined to give more credence to a person trained in Koi care, who does this for a living, has taken the time to make and post videos on the subject and therefore allowing for review, than I do to any "hey, I just signed up in a pond forum...listen to me...I'm an expert, trust me" dude. Now I might be completely wrong. I've come to this conclusion based on reading many forums, on many subjects, over many years. Just kind of seems to me that the untrained, inexperienced people who think they know a lot really turns out to not know much of anything.

Waterbug you are quite right but Doctor Johnson you must be aware he has also has written some spectacular books which takes the novice and gives them a firmer grounding in their hobby..
Though I'm not a goldfish owner I do have a copy of his spectacular book co written by his goodself and a chap by the name of Richard E. Hess. Called fancy goldfish A complete guide to care and collecting Photos by Fred Rozenzweig ISBN 1859749577 just to give me a grounding for goldfish questions that folks may need help with
As we both know he has written a really great koi book recently updated "2006", which is on my Xmas Wish list this year.
Last year we got a copy of Fundamentals of ornamental Fish Health by Helen E Roberts ISBN 9780813814018.
Which really opened my eyes especially on zoonotic exposure to fish and what exactly we can catch from them.
It lists well over eight things we can catch, at least one ending in our own deaths up.until then I used to think it was about two things that crossed over the species barrier and were non fatal ohh how wrong I was on that.
Video's are all well and good my friend to those that are at least grounded in the hobby , this poor person was working from what he was told at the petstore and as I've already stated here in the UK the petstore chain has been found very wanting in all quaters not just fish
We have by far the tightest Animal Welfare regulations in the world here in the UK where the person can be charged for not giving their fish /birds/animals due care and attention can face Jail or fines and ifetime bans on keeping any pet in any form.
In other words it is up to us to recognise that you have a problem and must rectify it immediately or face criminal charges by the authorities for not trying to recify it .
Ruben I did in a round about way mention that you should never mix tropicals with coldwater fish.
Rayux did mention that nobody acctually told him it was unwise to add the two together but he had heard it was ok from somewhere yet he was never corrected by either outlet about this.

rgrds

Dave
 
Joined
Mar 20, 2011
Messages
7,257
Reaction score
4,819
Location
near Effingham, Illinois
Hardiness Zone
5b
Dave, I'm still confused why cold water fish and tropicals cannot co-exist in warm waters? I have warm "tropical" waters in the summer where I live in the Midwest, and pleco is fine in with my koi/goldfish who can also reside in the warm waters. In my opinion, the tropicals (not all, mind you, but some) can co-exist, as long as the owner knows to remove the tropicals when the "tropical warmth" of the water ends in the late summer, early fall. Is this what you are trying to point out, or is there some reason that the two cannot co-exist for health reasons? Thanks!
 

Ruben Miranda

I am so confused
Joined
Oct 23, 2012
Messages
536
Reaction score
267
Location
So California Whittier
Hardiness Zone
12a
Country
United States
Hello
Tropicals
Need want a consitant temp 79 to 81 D and in the tropics they get that.
They will get sick/not do well even die if the temps go up and down extreamly
Example: Spring comes around the water gets to 79 D perfect you put your healthy Pelco in it is doing great.
2 weeks in the weather gets real hot or real cold and the water temp flucuates and you could end up with a problem.
Not to say people don't do it and have luck with it but it is not a recomended practice and more times then not it goes bad.
Plus Pelcos will get big and they can get agrisive and start going after the fish it is a big chance.
I would have to check it out but I don't remember pelcos being big on eating string algea could be wrong as I said not sure.

In anycase with the above and the system in place no more fish should be added MHO

Ruben
 
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
6,275
Reaction score
2,817
Location
Plymouth
Hardiness Zone
7a
Country
United Kingdom
Dave, I'm still confused why cold water fish and tropicals cannot co-exist in warm waters? I have warm "tropical" waters in the summer where I live in the Midwest, and pleco is fine in with my koi/goldfish who can also reside in the warm waters. In my opinion, the tropicals (not all, mind you, but some) can co-exist, as long as the owner knows to remove the tropicals when the "tropical warmth" of the water ends in the late summer, early fall. Is this what you are trying to point out, or is there some reason that the two cannot co-exist for health reasons? Thanks!

It's quie simple as Ruben states tropicals need a constant temperature, in the tropical world have you ever seen in the shop they normally state which fish can peacefully go exist with another ?
They do this for a reason because in the wld differing genus of fish will attack and harm each other !!!!.....
Well the same applies to Koi and Pleco's.
You hear of them time and time again leaving large scars on koi because they rasp onto the side of the koi the larger they get.......
Then you have the possibility of different desases and viruses skipping the species barrier, I'm not saying it will happen but there is always that possibility .
Look at the cane toad in Australia they first brought them in to do a specific job but they got it wrong , now the cahe toad is spreading across Australia why they have no natural no natural preditor this is because everything including salt water crocodiles die if they attempt to eat them.
Did you know that in all but two states in Australia and all of New Zealand koi are banned why?
Quite simply because they are considered pest!!!!...... now they want to introduce the Koi Herpes Virus to take care of that little problem.
So you see what I'm trying to get at, they are kept apart for a reason probably an extreeme example with the cane toad but the koi are killing of the natural fish of those two countrys why because they are bottom feeders and they curn over the bottom of the pond making it extreemely difficult that the natural species to exist perhaps they need clear water and gravel to exist the reasons are as long as your arm, you may even think up a reason that I havent yet .
In the far east there is an accident waiting to happen where what we would term monster fish that extreme anglers never have a chance to catch are kept together in a country that isn't theirs, so what happens if there is a flood for some reason and they escape it would be a nightmare senario..
Its seen all around the world accidents waiting to happen what about the killer bee for instance simply look to where they have got to in the US then think to get there they have taken over much of South America too. Dont tempt fate it often isnt worth it when pandora is out of the box its hard to get her back in....... .

rgrds

Dave
 
Joined
Mar 20, 2011
Messages
7,257
Reaction score
4,819
Location
near Effingham, Illinois
Hardiness Zone
5b
Thanks very much, Dave. I sure understand better now. I guess when I saw in our local pet shop a huge pleco and huge koi that were given to the shop when the owner had decided to tear down her pond, I figured they were ok together. Of course, they told me they would be fine, just needed to only have the pleco out there in warm waters. I won't make the mistake again!
And, I've seen tv shows about that toad and the way it is spreading. Same thing about water snakes in FL and killer bees that have migrated into the US. People have been killed lately in AZ climbing on the mountains there, bees attacking, running to get away from the hundreds of stings, falling over the edge and dying. Very sad. Heard the guy that died had over 100 stings on him.
 
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
6,275
Reaction score
2,817
Location
Plymouth
Hardiness Zone
7a
Country
United Kingdom
Another example is the Koi Herpes virus and also the Goldfish Herpes virus nobody knows how they originated but the spead of both viruses are simply staggering to say the least .
The Goldfish Herpes Virus is the lessor of the two evils , did you know it is rife in the US ?
The koi Herpes Virus shows no sign of stopping and has a foothold in many countries as you ptobably know it is leathol killing 80% of all koi with the survivor who are now carrying the virus having to be Euthanised to stop it spreading further.
Was it a case of the Lessor Goldfish Herpes Virus skipping to its Cousin or the other way around there are no answers to that question.
Strangly the only Country that has stock that are clear of the virus in two of its states is Australia surely it doesnt take a rocket scientist to say hang about here we have the only KHV free koi in the world we could make a killing here but no its a case of lets introdues it to the wild Carp we have in our water ways and kill them all off .
Did you know there is even an Oyster Herpes Virus ( wonder where that came from )!!!....
You are right about all the wild boaconstrictors free in the Florida everglades here in the UK we have a problem with your turtles set free after the ninja Turltle craze ,
Your grey Squirels have decimated our native Red Squirel population.
Our British Cray fish are being wiped out by American Cray fish at a rapid rate.
We have focks of green Parrots in and around London and Chinese mitten crabs destroying our river banks we are even seeing corals growing here where they shouldn't be.
We get reports of large cats killing sheep set free in the 1960's when they changed the law on the import of these big cats and the cost of a licence was extortionate so they simply opened the cage doors and let them all out .
Thankfully the only thing we havent got in the UK is Rabies but there is always the chance it will make a foothold .

rgrds

Dave
 
Joined
Mar 20, 2011
Messages
7,257
Reaction score
4,819
Location
near Effingham, Illinois
Hardiness Zone
5b
That's awful all the native species being killed by non-natives that are introduced. I had to laugh about the grey squirrel decimating the red squirrels, though! Around here, the gray is maybe half the size of the red squirrels, so I can't imagine that happening. Maybe in your area, the size difference is the opposite, or maybe the grays are smarter and more dominant.
 
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
6,275
Reaction score
2,817
Location
Plymouth
Hardiness Zone
7a
Country
United Kingdom
The red squirel in the UK is a very small animal this is why the greys took over , they are seen as pest in the forestry world damaging trees where the reds dont .
As such many greys are shot on sight as pest , the ones you find in the UK's parks are nearly tame in the fact they will eat from your hand they will come within inches of you .with or without food

rgrds

Dave
 
Joined
Mar 20, 2011
Messages
7,257
Reaction score
4,819
Location
near Effingham, Illinois
Hardiness Zone
5b
Squirrels, birds, any type of "wild" animal living in city limit parks are usually pretty tame. They are so used to humans being in their "yard" all the time, they have adapted. People start feeding them, and they become even tamer, whether that's a good thing or not, usually NOT! I, however, have a couple of gray squirrels at the local park that when I go daily for over a week or two, they will come to the tree I park close to, and wait for me to toss them a cracker or piece of my bread. I know I shouldn't do it, but it's still neat! They are not so tame to come get something out of a person's hand, although I've seen that at other parks.
 
Joined
Jul 15, 2012
Messages
1,678
Reaction score
862
Location
Southern Indiana, US Zone 6b
When I bought my first house, we had a Boxer named Dutchass. She hated squirrels! Lol. Our house was surrounded by oak trees, so you can imagine how many squirrels we had. They got to where every morning I would let Dutchass out to potty and they would be out there waiting for her, lol, fussing at her from the trunks of the trees. It was so funny :)
We don't se many gray squirrels around here, unless you are way out in the country. We do have flying squirrels though, I see them at dusk/ dawn every once and a while. Hey CE, maybe you know of this town, there is a town in Illinois, about 2-3 hours from here, that only has white squirrels :huh: it was the strangest thing I've ever seen! Thinking the town is Olney, Illinois or near there anyway.
 
Joined
Mar 20, 2011
Messages
7,257
Reaction score
4,819
Location
near Effingham, Illinois
Hardiness Zone
5b
Yep, you hit it on the nose, Fishy. Olney is known for the white squirrels. I've never seen one in person, but people there say there are quite a few now. Effingham also had a picture some years back (maybe 10 or more) of an albino deer out by Lake Sara. There was an albino turkey killed in the neighborhood where I used to live, my nephew killed it. Big tom. At first we thought it was a tame turkey that mingled with the wild, but he was told it was wild turkey. Now that's cool, as there are a couple more of them, to see pure white turkeys in the group during breeding season!
 
Joined
Nov 11, 2010
Messages
4,069
Reaction score
4,012
Location
Chicago Area
Hardiness Zone
5b
Country
United States
I have heard of those albino squirrels too. Supposedly you need to go out early in the morning to see them. Maybe their eyes are too sensitive to the sun for them to be out during the day. We have chocolate brown squirrels here that are really pretty. There are a bunch of gray ones too. I have heard the dark brown ones are more aggressive and push the gray ones out, but I haven't seen that happen.
 
Joined
Mar 20, 2011
Messages
7,257
Reaction score
4,819
Location
near Effingham, Illinois
Hardiness Zone
5b
If there is plenty of food, they will all come and coexist. If they are in the wild, and have to fight for their food supply, that's why some types of squirrels will get aggressive and push others out of the area. It's that way with all types of animals, it seems. Most protect their home ground, be it deer, squirrels, birds. Speaking of which, I saw a really cool falcon or hawk yesterday swooping over the fields by my house. It had white at the base of it's tail, then brown on the end. Smaller than a red tail hawk, but much larger than the typical "chicken hawk" (I think it's called a Coopers Hawk, maybe) that I usually see more often. Anyone know what it might be? I don't have time to search for it at the moment.
 
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Messages
6,275
Reaction score
2,817
Location
Plymouth
Hardiness Zone
7a
Country
United Kingdom
The reds would never coexist in the UK they are smaller and the greys carry a virus the red cannot cope with so there range has shrunk to just a few pockets around the UK.
Greys also destroy the trees where as reds coexist with the trees so its a no no

rgrds

Dave
 

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Members online

Forum statistics

Threads
30,785
Messages
508,608
Members
13,044
Latest member
Melissabloomsnbubbles

Latest Threads

Top