3rd time's a charm....

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Well, I stopped in a our watergarden shop yesterday to talk to them about a few things. They thought my problem with water clarity has been mud run off from the surrounding dirt. She told me be more aggresssive about water changes. I told her I had already done about 60%. She said I could do more, especially since I took out the fish. Fast forward....I decided I'd just drain it (DH didn't think we'd have any problems with it lifting) and get the mud out and refill...My pondliner floated up out of the ground AGAIN! Argh!

So we are rebuilding the lower pond and waterfall and using a flexible liner this time! The upper preformed pond will stay where it is at. Hmmmm, I wonder if I could cut the side of the upper preform down a little to make sort of a waterfall weir and actually have the upper pond feeding into the lower pond.....

Anyway, we have a very big project ahead of us. I don't think the little DIY waterfall weir/filter I made originally will work for a bigger set up. I'm not sure how to do the filtration (as inexpensive as possible) Especially if I end up feeding the upper pond into the lower pond, that will take away my waterfall filter completely so I'm not sure where a filter would go at that point!

Any thoughts or suggestions woud be helpful!!
 
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Ok, So I was reading addy1's info about bog filters and I think I would like to turn my upper preform into a waterfall bog that feeds into the main lower pond. My new pond, in estimation, will be around 1000 gallons and my preform is 100 gallons. This will be suitable as a bog filter to completely clean my pond without any other filtration....correct? So I feed the output of my pond pump (in the lower pond) to the bottom of my preform attach it to pvc pipe that has slits cut in it that runs the full length of the preform fill with river rock (could I use lava rock, would this potentially be even better) and allow it to overflow through the weir as a waterfall back into main pond.....My pump is 3500 gph, btw.

I tried to kind of draw what's in my head over a picture of the preform I have so you can see what I'm thinking (nevermind my lack of artistic ability) I'm wondering how full should it be of rock? Just to the top of the deep part or should the rocks go up on the plant shelves to?
 

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koiguy1969

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cutting the lip of the preformed and making a weir is possible but cutting the lip may in fact impair the structural integrity of the liner. i would opt for one or two bulkhead type fittings thru the wall just under the lip 1&1/2" or 2" would be geat . and you can flatten the end of the pipes to create a nice waterfall effect... i drew up a sloppy diagram but i think you can get the picture. this is how i would do a bog with a preformed. or even just an upper pool...upper pool would be less gravel and stones and less plants.maybe leaving the plants in pots. you could use a couple hose adapters to run hose down to the pvc with the holes in it on the bottom. any ways, youd cover the pvc with the holes with a nice layer of river rock to keep the gravel from finding its way into and plugging the holes in the pvc. cap the open end(s) of the pvc. the filtered water would dump into the preformed and have to travel thru the gravel to get thru the pvc and out the pipe(s) to fall into the lower pond. plant the plants in it bare root so they can feed directly off the water flowing past their roots.. the stones and gravel would also provide more more surface area for biofiltration.... i hope i explained this good enough...
heres a link to make the flattened pvc pipe for the waterfall end(s).
http://www.gardenpon...erfall-outlets/
i see you posted while i was doing this one... i type so slow. i saw the notice that there was a reply but didnt read it...your idea looks like it would work. i'm just leary of cutting the lip
 

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Thanks Koiguy! I'm not sure either about cutting the lip of the preform. But I did read on another website/forum where people have done it and it has worked well for them. Although that doesn't necessarily make me that sure about doing it. I've seen your post before about flattening a pvc pipe, but I don't think my hubby has the tools needed to heat those up. If cutting the lip is what could compromise the integrity of the preform, could I maybe use a sawzaw to cut a narrow rectangle just below the lip to create the spillway, and pull the liner up into the cutout like you would do on a skimmer, use rocks to create a natural look and waterfall foam adhesive? I have some really nice flat rocks in my waterfall now. Seems from your diagram the waterlows down through the rocks into the pipe and out? I thought it was supposed to be the other way around, out of the pipe with holes up through the rocks and then out of the top of the bog somewhere....Did I misunderstand how these are supposed to work?

A lot of what I end up doing or what my options are could depend on what I find tomorrow. An old friend's parents split up and he is going to be filling in her pond. I haven't seen her pond since high school, but I hear it is much bigger now. I was told I can have whatever I want for $50. Plants, filters, pumps, fish, pretty much anything (I hope she had a skimmer). But I have no idea how she had things set up or what shape they're in, etc. I'm taking a drive up there tomorrow afternoon to see what they have.

Ultimately I just want a garden that is low maintenance, natural looking, clear water for good visibilty of fish, and I'd really like to have a few koi with my goldfish, maybe 3. So far my pond has been none of that. Oh one more question, if my waterfall is on one end and pump on the other, where should the deepest part of the pond be? Under the waterfall or at the pump?
 
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You might want to double-check the capacity of your pre-form. The image you posted is the same liner I had for my first pond, and it was listed as 75-gallon capacity.

I agree with koiguy about using the bulkhead pipes rather than cutting a slot for your waterfall. Smaller pipes will conform to the curve of the liner easier. My suggestion would be four 1.5" pipes to create your waterfall. My first pond had a 3000gph pump, and I used two 1.5" pipes in the barrel filter. That provided just barely enough capacity to keep up with the pump, but if anything clogged one of the pipes, the barrel would overflow. Going with four pipes should give you a good margin for safety, plus it'll make a nice spread-out flow for the waterfall.

One more suggestion... don't just use a single pipe in the bottom of your bog. Use some T-connectors and make 3 or 4 pipes going across the floor. This will spread out the water flow and let it trickle out of the holes along each pipe, rather than just shooting out of a single pipe.
 
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Menards is currently selling the same preform and they have it listed as 100gallons. I'm really only guessing, because I was given these preforms and have no idea where they originally came from. So would I put end caps on each of those perpendicular pipes to make sure the water is pushed out of the slits in the pipes?
 

koiguy1969

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agreeing with showdragon on multple pipes on the bottom... thats why i put "pipe(s)" in my posting...cause i dont know what kind of room you have in your prefab liner. in my design thoughts you could still use your waterfall filter. the water falling into the bog would aerate it. and the water would be filtered so the chances of clogging your outlets are slim. but the gph of the pump would determine that...i assume you wont use a pump thats 3000gph or more ...more likely under 2000 gph. if you used your design you will want to install a checkvalve inline after the pump and before it enters the bog. because for any reason that the pump shuts down the bog will drain back into the pond. possibly emptying it, overflowing the lower pond and with all the water will come alot of the fish poop and small debris in the bog. you would in essence be backflushing the bog into your pond!
 
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Flattening the PVC can actually be done in the oven (bake at about 200 degrees, it will take about 5 minutes for the plastic to heat up enough - wear leather gloves!), however if you go with my suggestion of a row of four pipes across the waterfall area, it will spread out your flow and merge into a single wide stream. If you bring the rubber liner from your pond up to the outside of the preform, you can cut holes through the rubber and slide the pipe pieces through these holes before screwing them in place... effectively using the rubber to seal up the outside of the holes, plus creating a solid waterproof transition from your bog to the waterfall.

I think you're right that koiguy's diagram is missing something. For a bog filter, the water is pumped into the bottom pipes, then filters up through the rocks and flows out the top.

The deepest part of the pond should be where your pumps are located. This will make it easier for the pumps to pick up any debris and push it into the filter. The water doesn't have to be very deep under your waterfall. Its surprising how shallow the water is actually churned under a waterfall. Mine drops about 18" into my pond, but I think only about the top 6" of water are actually disturbed.
 

koiguy1969

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draw the water from the deep end, and put the waterfall at the shallow end the water returning to the pond will push debris toward the deep end where they can be drawn by the pump. i do this with a DIY prefilter.which is a mechanical filter before the pump. they catch debris before they clog the pump or get sent them off to gunk up the biofilter. my pump is right by my falls and i plumbed 1&1/4" hose down to my prefilter at the other end of pond. this ensures circulating the whole pond volume. i've seen skimmers 5" from the falls or pumps right by the falls drawing the water right there which can recirculate water just coming from the filter while the water at the opposite end gets much less circulation.
***my diagram is not missing anything...the flow is just reversed...it doesnt matter which way the water flows thru the gravel and stone... except my way is less likely to clog. and wont ever backflush back into the pond if the pump does quit or get turned off for any reason. in fact the waterfalling into the bog will add significant aeration...making for a healthier bacterial colony in the gravel.
 
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I did know I would need a check valve. Lord what a mess that would be! I think there would be room for 4 - 1.5" pipes across the bottom, definitely 3. My pump is 3500 gph Beckett solids handling pump. I also have another one that is only about 200gph. I'm planning on using the one I already have. I could split the flow from my pump to turn it down a bit going into the bog if you think that would be necessary, but I was told by Woodland Water Gardens that I needed a pump that size to have a decent looking/sounding waterfall.....
 

koiguy1969

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if you go your design route...i would use the 200 gph pump drawing the cleaner water from up near the top of the pond. making it its own indepentant system. or turn the flow from your 3500gph pump way down. my waterfall has 2000 gph thru it and has a nice 27" spread. if youve got atleast 100gals per inch of falls you'll have a nice falls. theres no reason for 3500 gph flowing in a pond thats only a few hundred gallons. that may be why your pond was never clear...too much flow kept the poop and other small debris in suspension...for that rate of flow you even need a big filter to catch the fine stuff suspended in the water
flattening the pvc is easily done...a cheap propane torch, a heat gun. or even boiling water can soften pvc in minutes .. making an outlet wont take more than 5 -10 minutes.
 
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Use the 200gph to run the bog? Will that turn my pond over enough to get clean water? I have 10 goldfish right now (2 were a mysterious gift..LOL)
 

koiguy1969

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...you can use the large pump...just split the flow between the bog and your filter, as a second falls or just put some of the flow as "inpond" circulation. use a ball valve and adjust flow thru the bog just fast enough to give a decent falls..
 
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Thanks everyone for your input....One more question (for now). The preform is around 17" deep. Right now my water level is up to 15" in the center, the plant shelves are about 9" deep. How full should it be of gravel? Should just the center be gravel and the plant shelves nothing? Or should I put a couple inches of gravel on the plant shelves as well? Also how far above the rocks should I fill the water? Just a couple of inches or should it be more like 5-6" of water above the gravel?

Also I read somewhere that I can plant things like Iris and Daylily in the bog. I have several Daylilies in pots that were given to me, and my mom has tons of Iris all over the place that she is more then happy to have me divide and take. Was also wondering about Water Hyacinth, can I put those in the bog or would there not be enough depth for floating plants? I remember my WH roots were really long by the end of season last year, seems like they would definitely be laying on the gravel in a bog?
 

koiguy1969

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i would want the gravel to be right up pretty close to the water line . depending on plant choices .there may be some plants that prohibit that. assuming your sticking with marginals and above and ground plants. you could build a mesh cage to put in a lilly pad, lotus , or the like. but the depth and size of the prefab is likely to limit your choices of plants and arrangement....
 

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