Aeration for winter question

Discussion in 'Winterizing Your Pond' started by Jersey_Marine, Aug 9, 2015.

  1. Jersey_Marine

    waynefrcan 14 years ponding and hopefully 14 more!

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    The original topic I had was, will my garage tubs cycle in cold temps, you said yes and I have proved no so far. For me to get the same results as your Lagoon study, I would have to have way under the amount of fish load that would normally cycle in room temps and to max out the entire body of water with bio media. That is just not real world. Bringing in fish from a large pond into tubs will carry higher fish load. And the fish need room to swim.
     
    waynefrcan, Nov 21, 2015
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  2. Jersey_Marine

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Considering that Ammonia toxicity is governed by both pH and water temperature, Ammonia levels may not be your real problem. What is the pH and temperature of your indoor tanks at present?
     
    Meyer Jordan, Nov 21, 2015
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  3. Jersey_Marine

    waynefrcan 14 years ponding and hopefully 14 more!

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    High PH 7-8 city water, temps so far 40-42F, fish are somewhat active and I'm feeding them. Last winter no food, no filtration, same PH. Heaters kept water at 36-40F.

    That study also suggests that nitrifying bacteria are not free swimming organisms. A few people will have a problem with that idea.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2015
    waynefrcan, Nov 21, 2015
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  4. Jersey_Marine

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    If you have a TAN of 2.0, with the temperature range and the pH range that you indicated, the level of free (toxic) Ammonia is borderline between being safe and safe for extended periods. The cut-off value is 2% of TAN. Using the highest numbers 42F temp and 8.0 pH, gives a level of about 0.025 or slightly elevated, but using the lower figures of 40F temp and 7.0 pH the level drops to slightly over 0.002. As you can see, the slightest rise in either pH and/or Temps can determine if Ammonia levels are safe.
    Has your previous Winter Ammonia levels capped at a certain level? Has 2.0 been the maximum level detected all winter?

    Nitrifying bacteria are planktonic at times, but are unable to oxidize Ammonia or Nitrite unless they are attached (sessile).
     
    Meyer Jordan, Nov 21, 2015
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  5. Jersey_Marine

    waynefrcan 14 years ponding and hopefully 14 more!

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    City water is mostly 8 range. YEs always in the range of 3-4ppm. Testing is just with mix of 2 chemicals and matching the color chart. There probably is better methods.

    I'll post results with next test.
     
    waynefrcan, Nov 21, 2015
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  6. Jersey_Marine

    waynefrcan 14 years ponding and hopefully 14 more!

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    4 week test and it's still high 4-6 ppm. The color chart has it between 4 and 8 ppm. I will give it one more 2 week cycle after water changes and if the same I'm pulling all filters and bio media, because as many predicted very little to no bacteria activity to combat ammonia levels in real life fish settings.
     
    waynefrcan, Dec 2, 2015
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  7. Jersey_Marine

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Pulling the filters and biomedia will only make a bad situation worse.
    Not enough SSA for biofilm development is your main obstacle. You have taken your fish from a pond of at least 15,000 gallons and placed them in 3 separate containers totaling 425 gallons (less than 3% of the main pond) and provided LESS biofiltration (likely also less than 3%). There is no way, under these conditions, to avoid high Ammonia even if the extant Nitrifying bacteria were functioning a 100%. Without adequate SSA. a bacteria population sufficient to handle the Nitrogen load can not be accommodated.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Dec 3, 2015
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  8. Jersey_Marine

    waynefrcan 14 years ponding and hopefully 14 more!

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    No one is going to max out total water space with bio media, just won't happen, therefore your information and study are just wrong and misleading.

    This fish load will cycle in room temps.

    I pulled all the filter media from the pond and put into the tubs in filters and the rest in the water. 6500 gal pond. Lack of bio media is not the problem. Lack of bacteria activity in 40F water is the problem.

    In fact I'm willing to bet normal bio media setup would not even provide enough bacteria function to handle even half the normal fish load.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2015
    waynefrcan, Dec 3, 2015
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  9. Jersey_Marine

    waynefrcan 14 years ponding and hopefully 14 more!

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    I will check again and report in 2 weeks.
     
    waynefrcan, Dec 3, 2015
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  10. Jersey_Marine

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    But you are forgetting one important fact, that is the submerged surface area of the your pond which is also considered SSA for the purpose of determining total Nitrification. The SSA in the three (3) tubs is minuscule in comparison. At low temperatures, especially, this total SSA plays an important role in providing for additional colonization of the nitrifying bacteria. The three (3) tubs do not have anywhere near the total SSA of your pond.
    You are going to believe what you want.
    I prefer to stay on the side of science.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Dec 3, 2015
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  11. Jersey_Marine

    waynefrcan 14 years ponding and hopefully 14 more!

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    That's my point, inside tub setups can not support a proper level of good bacteria to tackle ammonia with even a normal fish load.

    I will believe the science of the majority which is it won't work. Your minority opinion is just wrong.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2015
    waynefrcan, Dec 3, 2015
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  12. Jersey_Marine

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Not if the total Ammonia production by the fish exceeds the total oxidation capacity of the existing Ammonia oxidizing bacteria and archaea. There will still be a surplus of Ammonia that will steadily increase the total Ammonia level.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Dec 3, 2015
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    MitchM

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    Wayne, do you think that if the fish were transferred into the tubs during warmer weather, a more substantial biofilm layer would have developed and waste processing wouldn't be an issue?
    At these temperatures, there won't be any new growth of the biofilm.
     
    MitchM, Dec 5, 2015
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    Mucky_Waters

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    Not that it applies to this situation, but that statement is just not true. There are lots of different types of nitrifying bacteria, and there are bacteria that will convert ammonia and nitrite while free floating (planktonic). I've been in portable waste water treatment plants that depend on them.
     
    Mucky_Waters, Dec 5, 2015
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  15. Jersey_Marine

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    I should have clarified that statement by confining it to Autotrophic Nitrifying bacteria. Some planktonic heterotrophs will act as Nitrifiers in anoxic conditions.
    In WWTPs, most oxidation is carried out in Activated sludge, which itself provides a substrate for biofilm development. So the original statement still applies.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Dec 5, 2015
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  16. Jersey_Marine

    Mucky_Waters

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    Just to clarify, although the WWTPs that I was speaking did have an initial settlement tank with some anoxic bacteria action going on in the activated sludge at the bottom of that initial tank, the plants mainly used a series of heavily aerated tanks utilizing aerobic free floating bacteria as the principal nitrifiers. There was no solid media utilized in these tanks for these bacteria to attach themselves to, so they were most definitely "planktonic", and aerobic.
    As I say this doesn't really apply to Wayne's situation as the bacteria process employed in these aeration tanks likely would not be very effective at the temps he is dealing with.
     
    Mucky_Waters, Dec 5, 2015
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  17. Jersey_Marine

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    But they were not autotrophic. Autotrophic nitrifying bacteria i.e. Nitrosomonas, Nitrobacter, Nitrospira only oxidize the various forms of Nitrogen in a colony situation where quorum sensing triggers the process. This is only possible in a sessile state. It is possible, and is utilized in some WWTPs, to promote the formation of biofloc (a form of biofilm) to aid in the nitrification process. Although the floc may be considered planktonic because it is free-floating, the bacteria that colonize this floc are still considered sessile. To be considered planktonic, bacteria must be suspended as individual cells.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Dec 5, 2015
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  18. Jersey_Marine

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Meyer Jordan, Dec 5, 2015
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  19. Jersey_Marine

    morewater President, Raccoon Haters International

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    QUOTE="MitchM, post: 281414, member: 4402"]I have the most severe winter than anyone else that posts here, and my pond breathers had a slight film on them, but nothing that I considered unusual.
    How thick was the muck on the breather intakes? I would examine that first in case there is something else going on in your pond during the winter. Maybe the breathers were in too shallow of an area. I really don't think adding "cold water bacteria" is a good idea. There's no good reason for using that stuff, whatever it is.
    [/QUOTE]

    Mitch, I used to live in Grand Centre (near Cold Lake AFB). Is that near to you? Hard times out there now, from the economic data I've seen. Growing number of delinquency rates on mortgages, personal loans, etc. The Saudis are putting us out of the oil business, it would seem.

    As to the pond breathers, they work great, easy to install, etc. They are, however, a bit of a pain to clean come Spring. I've had good luck using a variety of bottle brush sizes. The pump cage needs to be opened to allow for the cleaning of the pump itself, not a big deal. I've customized mine somewhat by putting a zip-tie on the hose/hose barb and using zip ties to secure the heating line to the breather tube so that it's in physical contact with the transparent "breather".

    Shortening the pump line was necessary in some instances where the pump "cage" was sitting on the bottom of the pond, creating the hazard of leaves being drawn onto the "cage" surface, decreasing the pump efficiency. It doesn't seem that it would be an easy task to replace the original breather pump, should it croak, as there is a rather strange electrical connection that doesn't look to be alterable in the event of a pump failure.

    The only ice I've seen here so far this December (north of Toronto), are the cubes in my Gin & Tonic. That's how I like my ice. Doubling the amount of Gin in drinks mitigates the possibility of contaminated ice in the Dominican. That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it. Cross my eyes.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2015
    morewater, Dec 5, 2015
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  20. Jersey_Marine

    Mucky_Waters

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    Excellent point Meyers >>> "Although the floc may be considered planktonic because it is free-floating, the bacteria that colonize this floc are still considered sessile." This is essentially true. The bacteria generally attached themselves to particulates (floc) suspended in the water, however I will point out that in the real world it is not uncommon for other planktonic organisms to "floc" together and or to also be "sessile" at some point in their life cycle.
    As to whether the particular strains of aerobic bacteria floating (flocking) around in these aerated tanks were classified as autotropic or not, I can't say for sure. That question just never came up for some reason. :p Frankly I wonder how can you be so positive they weren't? I can't see why they wouldn't be chemoautotrophs just like the other bacteria you mentioned, utilizing the chemical reaction between hydrogen sulfide/methane with oxygen to make energy/food.
     
    Mucky_Waters, Dec 5, 2015
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