Ammonia reading / picture

[capewind]

What is the issue with baking soda?

Not sure I understand what you mean, but baking soda lasts indefinitely unless it reacts with something. I mean it doesn't just break down in some time period.

Sure it will last forever if a pond is sterile and has no "acid" to "react" with ... same can be said for the other products such as oyster shells and coral too. It is easy to blame a biofilter or large fish load, but what about say the seasonal change of summer to fall, when there is a massive die off of plants and decomposing matter? Which opens the can of worms for a more sudden change with the baking soda verses the other products dissolving (or reacting) as needed ... I am trying to learn the next level relating to KH, the use of baking soda OR the other products ,,, the neglect of calcium, magnesium and other trace elements ,,, I need to do a lot more research here to digest it better ...

 

[crsublette]

Size matters for O2 consumption. Bigger fish have to take in more O2 per "breath" so they need higher concentrations. They have bigger gills so the difference isn't that great, but they start falling behind faster than smaller fish when the O2 concentration falls.

In pH swings O2 concentration in the water doesn't change, so I don't think the same big vs small rule applies, at least in the same way. Because it is the fish's blood with the problem using the O2 I assume a small fish's blood would have the same problem as a big fish. What I don't know is whether size matters in how fast blood starts having the problem and/or whether size matters in how fast the fish would be effected.

Yep, as the bigger fish take in more O2 per "breath", they are also taking in much more of the pollution as well.

I do not think blood should be the primary focus. It is the damage to the gills that is primary concern and bigger fish simply just require to filter more out of the water than any smaller fish. pH swings can do significant, sometimes permanent, damage by burning or chaping the gills, dependent on the type of swing. A pH swing of between 7.5 and 6.5 is not a big deal. A pH swing between 7 and 6 or 7 and 8 is a much bigger problem. To compensate for this, then the bigger fish will start to act lethargic, which is why a big fish acting lethargic is not a good sign at all.

Smaller fish can repair this damage faster whereas bigger fish do not have much time to spare once their gills become significantly damage.

Often times, when I see ammonia spikes or pH swings, it is the bigger fish that die instead of the smaller fish. Of course, this is just an observation, but, when it happens time and time again, then frequency starts to indicate at the very least that bigger fish are more susceptible to particular damage versus smaller fish and vice versa.

 

[crsublette]

Sure it will last forever if a pond is sterile and has no "acid" to "react" with ... same can be said for the other products such as oyster shells and coral too. It is easy to blame a biofilter or large fish load, but what about say the seasonal change of summer to fall, when there is a massive die off of plants and decomposing matter? Which opens the can of worms for a more sudden change with the baking soda verses the other products dissolving (or reacting) as needed ... 1) I am trying to learn the next level relating to KH, the use of baking soda OR the other products ,,, the neglect of calcium, magnesium and other trace elements ,,, I need to do a lot more research here to digest it better ...

1) I am trying to learn the next level relating to KH, the use of baking soda OR the other products

I just don't think that is the best way to frame it, that is the " either... or " positioning.

The similarities end at the fact they both release a buffer compound, and, from then on, they can not be compared.

The duty of each product is quite different so I do not think they can be put on the same level as you are trying to do.


In your example of the plant decay, it would depend on what is the volume and constituent parts of the plant decay. If it is a massive algae bloom that is decaying or a quite heavy flood of rain, that could amount to a 70% water change, then a crushed calcium carbonate product will be too slow to react. The calcium carbonate product simply just provides a small cushion to give you time to react so that the pH just does not instantly crash right away.


This is why I have become a big fan of bogs and upflow gravel filters. Mix 50% or more of the bog, that the bog is sized at least around 20~40% of the pond's surface area, or add a few deep layers in the gravel filter, to be a crushed carbonate product, then add more on top throughout the season every year, and this would be an awesome pH cushion.

Then, save the baking soda for emergency situations such as if the KH drops incredibly fast due to a massive algae bloom decay or something else or in preparation of a massive rain storm or if you are simply wanting to keep the KH above 8~9dKH.

 

[crsublette]

Oh.....I am not discouraged I'm excited, and a bit nervous, for my pond work on Wed. Thinking of taking the day off work......that way I can take pictures My husband works from home. Kim

Very awesome Tula!! :banana: :claphands:


Be sure to give a yell out to your buddies here for a second opinion. :cheerful:


You have done qutie well thus far. I think it was the right move to not go with the copper ionizer.

 

[capewind]

1) I am trying to learn the next level relating to KH, the use of baking soda OR the other products

I just don't think that is the best way to frame it, that is the " either... or " positioning.

The similarities end at the fact they both release a buffer compound, and, from then on, they can not be compared.

Sorry Charles, not feeling well today ... I did not mean it as in the "either or", but was "attacking" both ...

The duty of each product is quite different so I do not think they can be put on the same level as you are trying to do.


In your example of the plant decay, it would depend on what is the volume and constituent parts of the plant decay. If it is a massive algae bloom that is decaying or a quite heavy flood of rain, that could amount to a 70% water change, then a crushed calcium carbonate product will be too slow to react. The calcium carbonate product simply just provides a small cushion to give you time to react so that the pH just does not instantly crash right away.

Not doing well in regards to expressing my thoughts ... I was trying to address the baking soda vs acid component in the text of reacting/using the KH faster, verses with the other type of product, it may dip, but under normal circumstance, going low isnt ZERO .. I personally do not like playing with the baking soda swings. You add it, the KH comes up. A couple/few weeks later, the KH level is dipping and you need to add more ... Maintenance pain in the arse. Coral/oyster shell is ALMOST add it, and forget it.

This is why I have become a big fan of bogs and upflow gravel filters. Mix 50% or more of the bog, that the bog is sized at least around 20~40% of the pond's surface area, or add a few deep layers in the gravel filter, to be a crushed carbonate product, then add more on top throughout the season every year, and this would be an awesome pH cushion.

The bog is where our coral goes, but our bog is more a veggie filter since it hasnt been finished. Has a pvc grid under what is in there for gravel ... Just dump it under the waterfall .. cant see it, and constant water movement over it. When the main pump went, a lot got redone .. LAST YEAR: The pond was about 6500 gallons, with a surface area of 11x18, connected to the bog, which was about 2500 gallons, with a surface area of 8'x18' ,, THIS YEAR, the bog was redone, made smaller (adding a bird sanctuary area) ... So now the bog is about 8'x14' and only 1250 gallons (made more shallow too) ,,.

Then, save the baking soda for emergency situations such as if the KH drops incredibly fast due to a massive algae bloom decay or something else or in preparation of a massive rain storm or if you are simply wanting to keep the KH above 8~9dKH.

Yes... this is what I want to chart next year, with the coral back in the pond ...

 

[crsublette]

Very good. Understood. :afro: Hope you start to feel better. Time for a foot message, hot tea, and some tender loving care by the big hubby; get on it. :cheerful: :claphands:

Actually, I am agreeing with ya. I just wanted to throw out a few clarifications. Personally, due to everything mentioned here, I have never been a fan of chasing KH numbers due to only using baking soda as my only buffer product in the water.

 

[Fishylove]

OK question then..... My water is clear of suspended algae, but EVERY surface in the pond and bog ( where the water is exposed to sunlight and not under the pea gravel) has algae on it (string algae?) NOW.... This is the first full season of my bog, I've not had to buffer the water yet, Ph is staying around 7- 7.5 depending on time of day, and our city water has a Ph of 7. My question, would it hurt to add calcium carbonate even though the Kh is 10 normally? The pond had algae the year before, not as much it seems, but there has always been a "carpet" of it on the sides. Which is fine with me, I like the natural look.

 

[crsublette]

OK question then..... My water is clear of suspended algae, but EVERY surface in the pond and bog ( where the water is exposed to sunlight and not under the pea gravel) has algae on it (string algae?) NOW.... This is the first full season of my bog, I've not had to buffer the water yet, Ph is staying around 7- 7.5 depending on time of day, and our city water has a Ph of 7. My question, would it hurt to add calcium carbonate even though the Kh is 10 normally? The pond had algae the year before, not as much it seems, but there has always been a "carpet" of it on the sides. Which is fine with me, I like the natural look.

I would definitely do it. Adding crushed coral or crushed oyster shells or lithaqua (which is crushed calcified seaweed and algae) just adds to the water's overall health by adding other beneficial minerals to the water.

It can never hurt adding more calcium carbonate (i.e., crushed oyster shells, crushed coral, etc).

WIth a low pH and a high KH, then there will likely be less carbonic acid, that is dissolved carbon dioxide, to dissolve the calcium carbonate product, but there is still other acids present that could dissolve it, except not as fast.

Next question is.... How can the KH be 10 degrees (or drops. or 178ppm) and still have a 7.0~7.5 pH ?? Remember, KH is only a measure of the water's resistance to acidic change, or buffer, and is not a test for any specific buffer. My guess is that there is another dominant buffer system present in your water, that is not only the bicarbonate/carbonate system. Your buffer might actually involve more phosphates, which is not a bad thing. A major pond myth is that high phosphates always contribute to rampant algae growth, which is not true. However, I am assuming your KH test kit reading is correct and has not expired. As a quick aside, baking soda (that is sodium bicarbonate) and calcium carbonate promote the bicarbonate/carbonate buffer system. Water involves many many buffers and is why it is so complex and can not always be easily explained.

 

[crsublette]

Ugh, my terrible memory. Triggers make for a good reminder.


Calcium carbonate would be very beneficial for a planting medium, especially if your source water is quite acidic.

A major problem with aquaponics is maintaining pH stability since the water has a natural tendency to become more acidic, that is too acidic to maintain proper biological filtration and fish health. This is due to the fact that plant's roots utilize a cation exchange system (i.e., CEC) and this causes the water surrounding the plant's roots to become tremendously more acidic, much more acidic than the water needs to be, and this is one of the natural tendencies that aquaponic folk have to constantly combat since their source water is already devoid of any noticeable alkalinity, which is to say their source water is quite acidic.

This is also why laterite makes for an excellent plant medium as well. If you need a "filler" medium to reduce cost, then add some non-clumping, no additives, no bacterial fighting agents, 100% pure clay kitty litter. Then, use some pea gravel to reduce compaction.

So, you could always make the top 6 inch layer of the bog to be a mixture of 50% calcium carbonate, 15% laterite, 15% kitty litter, and 20% pea gravel. Around about... just throwing out percents to express what I'm thinking.

 

[capewind]

Very good. Understood. :afro: Hope you start to feel better. Time for a foot message, hot tea, and some tender loving care by the big hubby; get on it. :cheerful: :claphands:

Thanks Charles. I will in a few days, or I hope ... Having some mood swings at this point. Not sick, but pulled one of the adductor muscles, which I keep aggravating LOL. Hubby has been taking very good care of me, but I refuse to stay idle LOL.

Actually, I am agreeing with ya. I just wanted to throw out a few clarifications. Personally, due to everything mentioned here, I have never been a fan of chasing KH numbers due to only using baking soda as my only buffer product in the water.

Now to learn more about the actual buffering properties ...

 

[crsublette]

1) Thanks Charles. I will in a few days, or I hope ... Having some mood swings at this point. Not sick, but pulled one of the adductor muscles, which I keep aggravating LOL. Hubby has been taking very good care of me, but I refuse to stay idle LOL.


2) Now to learn more about the actual buffering properties ...

1) Thanks Charles. I will in a few days, or I hope ... Having some mood swings at this point. Not sick, but pulled one of the adductor muscles, which I keep aggravating LOL. Hubby has been taking very good care of me, but I refuse to stay idle LOL.

Very good. :cheerful:

2) Now to learn more about the actual buffering properties ...

:lol: You go too far...

 

[capewind]

So, you could always make the top 6 inch layer of the bog to be a mixture of 50% calcium carbonate, 15% laterite, 15% kitty litter, and 20% pea gravel. Around about... just throwing out percents to express what I'm thinking.

Depending on the size of the bog, this ratio, even only an inch thick could be a LOT of calcuim carbonate ....

 

[crsublette]

Depending on the size of the bog, this ratio, even only an inch thick could be a LOT of calcuim carbonate ....

Indeed. ^_^

 

[capewind]

2) Now to learn more about the actual buffering properties ...

:lol: You go too far...

Nope, just lots of unanswered questions ... Know too much about some things, and not enough about others LOL.

 

[Tula]

I am taking tomorrow off work I was going to clean the pond tonight, but then I thought why bother.....plus I'm wondering if I should clean my filter pads and media....or would it be helpful to use them "as is" once the pond is refilled? I discussed pumping pond water into life stock tanks for fish....should I pump it back into the clean pond, or fill with fresh water, and treat for chlorine?

I wish I had a water meter so I could learn what my actual pond gallons are. Kim