An alternative, better, approach to a bog. Anoxic Filtration.


crsublette

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I realize there are two other threads already created here about this at ...

How to filter with catlitter: Anoxic Filtration (gardenpondforum)
Anoxic Filtration (gardenpondforum)

... but I figured to give the subject a bump and include some hyperlinks that were not included in the other threads.

I like plants, and want plants. Can I be using my plants more efficiently, that is what interested me about the Anoxic Filtration System. Is there a right way and a wrong way to use plants, and have I slipped into using them the wrong way, causing me bacteria problems.
As Mr. Greg Bickal said above in his koi-bito interview with Mr. Novak, this is my motivation as well as attempting to design a better bog, that's on a smaller scale.

As mentioned in the threads below, Mr. Novak states it is OK to use his implementation with other bio-filters.


Mr. Syd Mitchell, at Pond Trade magazine, wrote a good column that better explains the anoxic filtration.

Dr. Kevin Novak, a limnologist, rendition of Anoxic Filtration. - This is the updated 2010 version. The first version was released back in 2007.


Welp, here is your homework. Enjoy. :)


KoiVet professional on Anoxic Filtration (koiphen) - At the beginning, one out of a slew of threads Mr. Novak created back in 2007 to advertise his rendition of anoxic filtration. WARNING: This thread becomes very pointed by hard ball questions from koi connoisseurs, an evasive Mr. Novak, and a fight between the Novak choir and the koi connoisseurs.

Anoxi Filtration (koiphen) - Next major thread discussion that is two years after the crazy thread above. This thread is much more informative and Mr. Novak is more involved.

Since Muhammed can't go to the Mountain (koi-bito) - A koi-bito member making public of Mr. Novak's interview on KoiVet. The good bits of the interview. Unfortunately, as I understand it, due to Mr. Novak's evasiveness and him placing a copyright on his words, this interview got moved into a private forum on KoiVet that is not accessible to the public. Nonetheless, the bits copied & pasted on koi-bito is a very good interview.

Filtration Comparison Study (koiphen) - A koiphem forum member's experiment attempting to benchmark three filtration systems: conventional commercial vs bakki shower vs anoxic filtration.

Removing Nitrate? (koi-bito) - Another good thread talking about Mr. Novak's anoxic filtration.

KoiKeeper Unleashed - A forum where I am told that Mr. Novak continues to answer questions and has an "anoxic filtration" sub-forum.

Bog Filter (koiphen.com) - A thread about a guy looking to rebuild his bog. Very good ideas suggested!
 
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Hello everyone, this is Dr. Novak the inventor of the Anoxic Filtration System. The Internet web link to Koi Keepers Unleashed (KKU) is no longer a valid resource for information on the Anoxic Filtration System. For some reason they have erased all the information on their site about the Anoxic System after 19-months and over 48000 views latter. It was their number-one view thread on that site with lots of info for all to read. It also showed links to Italy and the professional testing they did on the Anoxic Filter. I had translated Dr. Franco’s test for them for their site but now all is lost.

I have done some reading on this site (Garden Pond Forums) about bog & Veggie filters and there is a lot of misinformation on such. The Anoxic Filter is easier to maintain and without all the hard work and hassle. Aquatic plants will grow 100% better using the Anoxic Filter over a bog or Veggie Filter, which I guarantee. The only problem is that plants will grow too fast and large in a short time.

If anyone is interest to acutely talking to a scientist (Ichthyologist, Limnologist and a Aquatic Microbiologist) on this forum then let me know I’ll be glad to help.

Kevin Novak Ph.D.
 
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Welcome Kevin
I'm sure Charles will be glad you dropped in. I must admit I don't know much about Anoxic Filtration, nor have I paid much attention to Charles's resent interest in it, but if it's true that "aquatic plants will grow better", then you have peaked my curiosity, and I will try and pay more attention. Thanks

Mucky
 

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Perusing this thread and reading/skimming the pertinent articles, it still makes me wonder why so many are hung up on filtration. Though far from an expert, when I originally decided to put in a pond, I was going to use a larger version of what I'd been using for tropicals––the Skippy type filters––and put it in my plan. Then, reading here at GPF, I came across addy's bog thread, which made me google and research bogs. In the end, it seemed imminently easier and more or less maintenance free to just go with a bog. Which I did.

Now, at the end of the second year, the ONLY labor put toward filtering was the original digging and filling of the bog. I've done absolutely nothing else and my water is clear, never even had an interval where the water was green. If you read addy's comments re her bog, it seems she's experienced similar results. There's no laterite, no kitty litter, no baskets (and at one/per adult fish, seeing as to how when my fry grow fully next summer, I'd need now 100 baskets--ridiculous idea to even think of entertaining, imo) and no further future replacements of said materials. I have one pump that provides for the falls and bog; that's it. I can reduce/increase flow to either at whim; there's no large flow/volume of water necessary as I'm reading of Anoxic systems)

I don't have a lot of 'time' on my side re these results, but since anything organic is going to break down (at the bottom of the bog as it's filtered by the pea gravel), and nitrates are being used by the bog (and pond) plants, I don't see the problem. It's entirely as nature would have it and nature's been around a lot longer than any filter manufacturer, including this Anoxic filter. Though, I'd do the AF before I did Skippy/manual types, simply because the AF IS nearly a bog filter.

So, why would I entertain a larger expense, certain replacements (both $ and effort) of the baskets as the components are used up, and even the larger area I'd need to house this (compared to my bog; I used the 5-15% ratio found from bog articles, to create a roughly 3'x4'x40" depth bog that gravity feeds back into the pond, with the pond water being originally pumped to the bog's bottom). Maybe if I was trying to maximize profits from the sale of fish/plants, but I just can't see beating a bog for everyday people. There's too many benefits. Remember; I said '0' maintenance, which means all such time can be spent actually enjoying what I've created. There is NO prefilter because the bog IS the prefilter. And the filter. And a fertilizer factory for plants...

Sometimes as I read the filtering threads, I really do shake my head at various choices. Having had a great many tropical fish aquariums through the years, I appreciate how easy the pond has been on me. Hardest part of ponding so far has been to turn my head when I have to pull out more of my fast growing mimulus because I don't want it to take over other plantings. Oh yeah, and fishing the turtle out of the goldfish side of my pond.

No regret here and glad I found addy's thread and went with a bog as my filter choice.

jmho

Michael
 
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Quote; “Perusing this thread and reading/skimming the pertinent articles, it still makes me wonder why so many are hung up on filtration.”

That’s because a 27” 12-lbs female Koi can cause catastrophic disaster on a ponds filter and its other aquatic inhabitance if a filter is not size right or incapable of handling the biomass of such a large animal/animals.

I do understand what you mean by clear water and I’m glad you’re having such good luck with your bog filter, but in the world of aquatic microbiology clear water means nothing. The turbidly of water only tells us a very small part of the story. The chemistry of that water will tell us if it’s safe for aquatic animals or not, not the turbidity of such. Too many hobbyists get hung-up on how “clear their water is” or if it turns green from microalgae and not how clean their water actually is. After all I could hand you a glass of innocuous looking crystal-clear water that would kill you in less than five minutes if you drank it. Not knowing the chemistry of the H2O in that glass would be your demise. Could you imagine if Sewerage treatment facilities only looked at how clear water was and not the chemical makeup of that water, we would all have dysentery!

Anyone dealing with water chemistry would ask you:
What is the redox of your ponds water mass?
What is your TDS of that water?
Bacterial count of waters mass and of filter bed?
Oxygen concentration of filter bed and is any Assimilatory Denitrification taking place or Dissimulative Denitrification taking place?

Not being able to answers these four simple questions about your water chemistry or filter does leave most in the dark as to the validity of your bog filter and it capabilities to handle bio-loads correctly. Just because fish spawn in a pond, does not give us any indication on how good its water chemistry is. Most animals even under duress will try and propagate.

Please try and understand I’m not trying to undermine the validity of your claims of your bog filter. I’m just saying most hobbyists know that bogs in the long run will collapse and that is a fact. They were use in Victorian Times and most have found they eventually weaken with age. The water chemistry of the ponds mass will deteriorate over time, slowly, but it will happen and you can’t stop it without doing some very aggressive cleaning of that filter to keep biological and chemical pathways open. Even the plants will eventfully have pH swings from lack of micro and macronutrients (Liebig’s minimum law) and will not take cations and anions in equilibrium with each other out of solution like they are suppose to.

Remember, if your plants are growing great that is a sign that your bog filter is producing lots of Ammonium ions to feed them, after all plants look for ammonia first as a food source than No3 Nitrate nitrogen, No3 nitrogen is only taken up when ammonia/ammonium is almost exhausted because of so much work for the plants to convert it back to ammonia once again. So in other words, your filters is not taking but making more ammonium ions. Yes some ammonia is being converted by the nitrogen cycle but without knowing the first four questions I asked at the top, you really don’t know! You’re only gestimating at how good or bad such a filter is performing and not using any scientific proof for your analyses. That why in another tread a hobbyist makes the statement that a bog is noting more than an under gravel filter for a fish tank. Under gravel filter have too many problems associated with them and more hobbyists go with a Plenum system instead.

However, no matter how much science I can throw at you as to why bogs cloak hobbyist into a false sense of security, your success will not let you become that “open parachute” for new information. So with that said: If you’re having such good luck with your bog filter then by all means DO NOT CHANGE! I’m glad you’re beating the odds, and good luck, too.
 
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Quote; “Perusing this thread and reading/skimming the pertinent articles, it still makes me wonder why so many are hung up on filtration.”

That’s because a 27” 12-lbs female Koi can cause catastrophic disaster on a ponds filter and its other aquatic inhabitance if a filter is not size right or incapable of handling the biomass of such a large animal/animals.

I do understand what you mean by clear water and I’m glad you’re having such good luck with your bog filter, but in the world of aquatic microbiology clear water means nothing. The turbidly of water only tells us a very small part of the story. The chemistry of that water will tell us if it’s safe for aquatic animals or not, not the turbidity of such. Too many hobbyists get hung-up on how “clear their water is” or if it turns green from microalgae and not how clean their water actually is. After all I could hand you a glass of innocuous looking crystal-clear water that would kill you in less than five minutes if you drank it. Not knowing the chemistry of the H2O in that glass would be your demise. Could you imagine if Sewerage treatment facilities only looked at how clear water was and not the chemical makeup of that water, we would all have dysentery!

Anyone dealing with water chemistry would ask you:
What is the redox of your ponds water mass?
What is your TDS of that water?
Bacterial count of waters mass and of filter bed?
Oxygen concentration of filter bed and is any Assimilatory Denitrification taking place or Dissimulative Denitrification taking place?

Not being able to answers these four simple questions about your water chemistry or filter does leave most in the dark as to the validity of your bog filter and it capabilities to handle bio-loads correctly. Just because fish spawn in a pond, does not give us any indication on how good its water chemistry is. Most animals even under duress will try and propagate.

Please try and understand I’m not trying to undermine the validity of your claims of your bog filter. I’m just saying most hobbyists know that bogs in the long run will collapse and that is a fact. They were use in Victorian Times and most have found they eventually weaken with age. The water chemistry of the ponds mass will deteriorate over time, slowly, but it will happen and you can’t stop it without doing some very aggressive cleaning of that filter to keep biological and chemical pathways open. Even the plants will eventfully have pH swings from lack of micro and macronutrients (Liebig’s minimum law) and will not take cations and anions in equilibrium with each other out of solution like they are suppose to.

Remember, if your plants are growing great that is a sign that your bog filter is producing lots of Ammonium ions to feed them, after all plants look for ammonia first as a food source than No3 Nitrate nitrogen, No3 nitrogen is only taken up when ammonia/ammonium is almost exhausted because of so much work for the plants to convert it back to ammonia once again. So in other words, your filters is not taking but making more ammonium ions. Yes some ammonia is being converted by the nitrogen cycle but without knowing the first four questions I asked at the top, you really don’t know! You’re only gestimating at how good or bad such a filter is performing and not using any scientific proof for your analyses. That why in another tread a hobbyist makes the statement that a bog is noting more than an under gravel filter for a fish tank. Under gravel filter have too many problems associated with them and more hobbyists go with a Plenum system instead.

However, no matter how much science I can throw at you as to why bogs cloak hobbyist into a false sense of security, your success will not let you become that “open parachute” for new information. So with that said: If you’re having such good luck with your bog filter then by all means DO NOT CHANGE! I’m glad you’re beating the odds, and good luck, too.
 
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Amen.

It's pretty much impossible to have a serious filter discussion in any public forum as people take great personal offense if their personal filter isn't considered the best by everyone else on the planet. I have no idea why people defend filters like they would their children or fav sports team. It's just a tool. But that's the way it is.

I've easily read more than a few hundred threads in my day of people building a pond and a week later saying their pond is clear so therefore filter X is responsible. Pitty the poor person who suggests maybe there might be better filters or discuss any negative aspect. These threads are to make people feel good, not discuss filters. It doesn't matter one little bit whether a filter works well or poor for a given pond in those discussions.

Dr. Novak, thanks for all the info you've posted on this subject and going into various forums to answer questions. I've been one of the many readers of your posts and documents who never posted.

As part of my next pond build I currently plan to also build a test pond that can be configured for different experiments. Similar to the Paultergeist's study only on a larger scale because I don't think some of his tests scaled that well. I will test the Anoxic Filtration System. My idea is if I can test different kinds filters using the same system, with more control than a regular fish pond, that I might be able to learn at least a few of the different aspects to how all filters perform. To my way of thinking all filters perform at some level, even if almost zero. So with good data any one specific filter can be put into a place that fits a need.

My first test will be without plants. The discussion around plants vs no plants I always thought muddied the discussion on the Anoxic Filtration System. Once I try different things (pH, ammonia levels, temp, flow, etc.) with that setup I can start again with plants. Hope that sounds reasonable. I'm at least a year away from doing this.
 
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Waterbug;


Yes, I can’t agree with you more, filters are a dirty subject that’s best left to those that wish to fight those endless battles of discussion that will lead to no reasonable end, all one can do is agree to disagree.

The Italians have done some very good testing on the Anoxic System carrying out correct periodical, after all Dr. Franco was a professional in his field. All test were done with some professional testing equipment, too.

Before you go through so much trouble in retesting what has been tested so much before that I think it now has been the most tested pond filter on earth. I would be more than happy to post all test results from Dr. Franco for you. I’m afraid that Dr. Franco’s passing would make it too hard for him to do it himself, he died this year. He loved the system and tried very hard to get the word out to the Italian Koi hobbyists.

I’m not here to ridicule anyone’s filter or belittle him or her in anyway for using such, which is something they must sleep with not me. I give facts and sometime those facts that are given don’t set very well with others, but yet they still are the scientific facts whether they become perceptible to them or not. If I offend anyone, them I’m truly sorry for the offensiveness of my writings.

Clear water does not mean clean water; the two are as different as night and day. Here in Chicago and suburbs pond builder sell ponds that stay clear not ponds that keep water clean of contaminates.

I’m and audiophile at heart and when someone showoffs their very expensive stereo system they always ask: How does it sound? The correct answer is: If you like it, then it sounds great. I think this answer applies to pond filters, too.
 
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It would be great to get any data you have.

Part of my testing will be to test my tests. If I don't get the same result as others it will tell me to look closer at my tests. And I sure don't mind confirming what others have already found. It still adds to the data set and that has value to me. One aspect I want to test is how these filters can fail. For example it looks like shower filters sometimes fail to outgas ammonia and that temp, pH and flow probably play a role but this isn't well understood. I'd like to try and measure these limits. I read a lot of people posting "I tried filter X and it didn't work" like that somehow proves filter X doesn't work. What pH? What flow?

I've never been a fan of "agree to disagree" outside of maybe religion. Data is data. It can be right, wrong, incomplete, whatever, but it is what it is as long as the parameters are well documented. Discuss the data, come up with theories on how to get better data. The forum business of taking 6 words out of some post 2 years ago to disprove or prove some point is debating, word spinning, winning a pointless point at all cost. Entertaining sometimes, but shouldn't be confused with learning.

If 10% of the time spent writing opinions was instead spent testing water parameters and posting results this hobby would be much further ahead.
 
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I’m and audiophile at heart and when someone showoffs their very expensive stereo system they always ask: How does it sound? The correct answer is: If you like it, then it sounds great. I think this answer applies to pond filters, too.
I agree when there's no problems, like when the filter is currently good enough or isn't actually needed at all. I see no point going into every thread and telling people their filter isn't the best. But when people are saying "my fish are dying" and they want solutions I think people have to put the opinions away and start working at learning something if they want any shot at a solution.
 
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Dr. Novak, do think this would be a reasonable test?

Rectangular, say 10'x4'x3' PVC liner pond with some area of the bottom containing biocenosis-baskets. 2' is a minimum. no harm in deeper as long as flow is good?

Flow say in the range of 1 or 2 times the tank size per hour.

I would add ammonia instead of fish.

To keep out almost all sunlight I can cover the pond with liner, maybe 6" above the sides to allow air circulation. There's nothing about the system that requires light correct? I would have a pump at one end of the pond just pumping water to a diffuser at the other end. In theory there would be very little clogging of media. Is that actually going to be too clean for the heterotroph or is organic matter needed? If yes can I add it directly to the media in the baskets?

To cycle I have to promote Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter so I need to keep KH up, keep temp and pH in range. Are there any parameters I have to adjust for the facultative anaerobic heterotroph? For example I understand Nitrobacter requires less than 0.1 ppm free ammonia (NH3) and I assume heterotroph would be OK with that too.

Do you have any insights on why this filter takes so long to cycle? Any ideas to speed this up even under just test conditions?

Would the nitrogen outgas on its own or is something like a fountain needed? My closed test case would be relying on this.

On another topic if I might impose a bit more, since I don't get to converse with a Limnologist and Ichthyologist everyday. For years I've had a theory that freshwater algae produce allelochemicals that are toxic to other algae. String algae for example making water toxic to green water algae and green water algae suppressing string algae. The idea of water being toxic to algae came from Norm Meck. I've read about this in marine algae but never run into anything for freshwater algae. Is there anything you can point me to?

And lastly, something that I've seen in different forums over the years and this thread recently, is this bone that appears in ponds. My guess is it's part of a Goldfish or Koi skull but no one has been able to say for sure and I don't have any dead fish handy.
Skull.jpg


Thank you for your time.
 
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crsublette

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Very awesome. It's a privilege to have ya here Mr. Novak.

I have more to say and questions, but I am only available to post from my cellphone at this moment, which takes me forever to do. Currently, I am driving a tractor, hoping to do a 16 hour day of plowing, so it will be much later tonight for me to be available. Took me about an hour to type and pay attention to what I'm doing here.

Thanks for your time and I definitely appreciate your efforts here.
 
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Look at it this way Waterbug, all filters work…they do perform a purpose that is sometimes compromised by the hobbyists or other unforeseen insults that weren’t added into the equation when setting the filter up. Each filter that we use has its limits and the hobbyist easily reaches those limits.

Back in the seventies we did experiments on under gravel filters (AKA: Bog filter in pond terminology) to see if pulling water through the substrate was better than a revers flow substrate. The theory behind the revers flow system by manufactures was; the substrate would stay cleaner and would prevent water channeling from detritus. As we all know, water takes the path of least resistance and when the substrate starts clogging oxygen levels in that area lessen to the point of degradation of the system. With 55-gal fish tanks and under gravel filters that were 12”X23” long times two per tank. The tanks with the revers flow systems; each side had 600-GPH going through each plate. That’s a lot of water going through such a small under gravel plate, plus the water was pre-filtered before going into that plate. We ran the test for two years and at 3-month intervals we examined each tanks substrate. We found that no matter what direction the water flowed through the substrate they carried the same amount of detritus in the substrate whether revers flow are just pulling water from the top of the substrate. The reason why this would happen eluded the manufacturers. They forgot that the substrate was electrically charge and using physics the negatively charge substrates would attract the positively charge detritus no matter what way the water flowed.

For hobbyist, talking about any electrically charge substrates was never mentioned because they didn’t know. Scientists knew about water being electrically charge along with substrates they were using. It wasn’t until the nineties that electrically charged substrates and water and air topography was even mentioned being electrically charged. To this day many hobbyists do not understand the science behind electrically charge substrates and water, or they just don’t care. Because of this, it doesn’t matter which way the water flows through a bog filter; because if the substrate isn’t aggressively cleaned it will fill with detritus and block all chemical and biological pathways. Only in extremely fast moving or high pressure water flows that has the ability to agitated the substrate and expel any detritus will the substrate stay open to chemical and biological pathways. As we all know this just is not a feasible alternative moving thousands of pounds of gravel continuously.

I think from what I said here does explain why manufactures abandon the under gravel filter- though they still make them- for moving filters (like spinning wheels), Nexus filters (churning the filter medium) or wet dry filters instead. More oxygen and the movement of the filter medium allow the detritus to dislodge itself from the substrate or filter medium that’s being used.

However, let’s don’t get mechanical filtration mixed up with biological filtration, they are two separate entities and are often mixed-up by hobbyists and one can’t tell if they are trying to mechanically filter or biologically filter with the same medium. If you think that bacteria will easily mineralize all organics that goes into the filter medium then think again. Some organics are too complex and may take as long as a year or two for complete mineralization like tree leaves for example. Mixing the two into the same medium is old school and a standalone mechanical filtration always wins out over combination biological filters when it comes to higher redox. So very good pre-filters play the part of a mechanical filter then the biological is last. If this is not adhered to then you will have a plethora of bad bacteria where you are trying to avoid it.

Once again hobbyist will think that mixing the two is okay because; the detritus will breakdown into mulm, which is matter leftover after total mineralization has taken place, it is the simplest form of waste that is inert and will not affect water quality any longer. But once again this is not accurate, to make matter or organics into an inert substance takes a lot of oxygen and it must not compact because now the pore-water and permeability structure of the medium will change, once it compacts it then will becomes another filter medium for anaerobic biological activities to start and that means more ammonium ions back into solution. Only a controlled environment under Anoxic conditions will N2 (Denitrogen gas) be made and the use of Facultative bacteria will utilize ammonia and/or nitrates as an electron excerptor. It will take the oxygen from these ions and use it. If anyone were to say they have a natural system mimicking Mother Nature then it would be the Anoxic system and no other. Natural systems make N2 that is 78% of are atmosphere. We would not be alive today if these facultative bacteria did not do their job in such a specialized environment like natural ponds have. No N2 production then no natural system.

So for those that think forcing detritus and organics into a filter medium and it will break down to its inert substance this will become a two edge sword that will effect redox of that medium and not knowingly change the oxygen capabilities of that substrate/medium in question. This is called eutrophication or more precisely called hypertrophication, when the ponds ecosystem response to the addition of artificial or natural substances, such as nitrates and phosphates and in the worst cases more ammonia that plants love and aquatic animals hate.

In natural system this may take as long as 100 years, but in a closed system like our ponds using an incorrectly implement bog filter eutrophication may take only one year or less, there’s nothing natural about that is there? As time goes on this medium become a ticking time bomb altering pH and other parameters too and can kill and entire ponds inhabitance. Fist, sickness will strike with sores and body abrasions not healing or ulcerations, because redox begins to drop to levels unfavorable for aquatic life. If invasive action is not taken to clear chemical and biological pathways then the pond will die and in natural systems when this happen redox can go as low as -400 mV. You will now have achieved a pond of death just like a natural system so I guess you can say your filter is like natures.

However, an Anoxic system has none of these problems because pathways stay open to chemical, biological and gaseous mediators and never close. So far some biocenosis baskets that are over 20–years old now and still doing the job they were designed for…biological filtering without clogging. There’s no other filter on earth that can make the same claim, except a natural system that Mother Nature herself makes.

Sorry for being so long winded but I will get to your questions, LOL!
 
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Dr. Novak,

Thanks for being available to discuss the anoxic process and biocenosis-baskets. I am in the process of building my first pond and am intrigued by this anoxic process. Is it truly as simple as kitty litter and laterite? I am planning a 6x12 area that will be pump fed from the pond that I can make 2 feet deep and pack with baskets. I would definitely plant the baskets. I there a recommended flow rate for this process? This will be in addition to bottom drain and mechanical filter and a skippy filter fed from a Skimmer filter. Is the accepted standard still 1 basket per adult koi. Once again, glad you are here to educate first hand.
 
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Dr Novak, I don't understand what your post was referring to specifically. I have no interest in combining mechanical and bio, don't think it's ever a good idea and I have posted that many times.

Was it in response to this question?
Is that actually going to be too clean for the heterotroph or is organic matter needed? If yes can I add it directly to the media in the baskets?

I think I understand the concept of facultative. But from what I read these are also heterotroph and to my limited understanding these would need some organic matter, but I've never tried to promote the growth of these animals before. In my test case I would only have the organic matter available in tap water, and I assume a very slow increase later. I only wondered if that was enough. I'd be very happy if no organic matter had to be added, one less variable.

What I'd rather not do is create an expensive (for me) test case, take readings for 6 months and then find out there wasn't enough organic, or something else, and the entire effort wasted. In a perfect world I would like you to tell me what the most perfect set up would be to create the best possible results. You understand this better than anyone on the planet and at best I'd be a lab tech. I do want to focus on the Anoxic system and eliminate any part of a pond that isn't related, like fish and plants including algae.

Most people I think look at the massive amount of plants in the Anoxic system example ponds and just say "veggie filter" and the Anoxic part is dismissed. So I'd like to eliminate plants from the test. But I'd also like to see if there is any way to speed up the time the Anoxic system has been shown to cycle up to speed.

I look forward to your notes on my test case questions. Thank you.
 
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Dr Novak welcome, I too am glad you've taken the time to answer questions and I thank you for your time. I am very interested in this anoxic concept and want to implement this into my set up. I have just recently ( last week ) had to remove the liner from my pond because of a leak, and are replacing it today ( hopefully ) with a firestone rubber liner, if all goes well I will have all of the fish back into their home by tomorrow. They are currently in a temporary home, that I had built behind the pond ( that is at best 2' deep; slightly concaved ) to start a bog filter. I also transferred the same water and bio filter with the fish so at least I have a cycled filter. I know I need to get them back in their deeper pond but I have a few concerns...

FIRST, my worry is about the fish and the new liner. Being so late in the season, will the fish be "ok " in their new liner and wintering? *My concern being ( their may not be a concern idk, I have tendency to over think when it comes to this pond, and sometimes make things worse :wacko: ) with the liner not having algae and "bugs" established.

SECOND, is it too late in the season to start this anoxic filtration? I mean, we will be shutting down filters etc. before long, as we have had several cold nights and the water is getting colder by the day, unfortunately. Do I need to shut this Anoxic filter down?

THIRD Question, with all the research I've been doing on the Anoxic filter, ( and I may have just not gotten this far ) I can not find where the perameters of how much of a pump / water flow is needed for my size pond. The area I have is 8' X 4' X 18" - 24"D and will spill over back into the main pond that is 10' X 6' X 4' , with a 2' X 8' X 1- 2' this ( this area being shelves ).
My fish load being, two 12-13" koi, two 7-8" koi, 4 comets biggest being 10", 2 dozen rosy reds.
I welcome anything you or anyone else can help me with.
Thank you,
 
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Quote:
Dr Novak, I don't understand what your post was referring to specifically. I have no interest in combining mechanical and bio, don't think it's ever a good idea and I have posted that many times.



10-9-2012

No, No ,No, Waterbug! The first and only the first paragraph pertains to you and when you said that you don’t believe in the philosophy “to agree to disagree” like I do. I think because all filter work even though they all have their limits, then some slack should be applied to those that may not see things your way or my way. Because of that one reason alone, some may fail whilst other will be very successful at the same thing.

The rest of what I said I’m still working on what #4brokensword / Michael said. He seems pretty agitated at me (maybe not) and on the defensive side already. The rest is only to show what will in time really happen to a bog implemented the way he was told how to do it. I’m also not questioning his ability on pond husbandry or his knowledge on tropical or cold-water fish. As you know there is a lot of science into making a filter work, not only for today but also in the years to come. I’m not here to get into a heated discussion with Michael on his filter. I think he needs to be respected for giving his bog a try, but needs to know the truth about the science behind his pea-gravel bog. I’m not going to ask him about his water parameters and try to agitate him even more; he’s probably been through the gauntlet already more than once by others. I think some professionalism needs to be shown to him because I’m not trying to showoff are prove any points at his expense.


However, his “natural system” and his pea-gravel bog is just not so! I hear that from a lot of hobbyists about how “natural” their filters are and they can’t be any further from the truth. He is using a typical sewage treatment facility filtering system and nothing more. Adding plants to it still doesn’t change it into a natural system or bring it any closer to such.
 
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Hello Fishylove,

I’m taking your question first because you need help now ASAP.

The liner you’re using is EDPM will be just fine and will last 25-years or more years. Firestone liners have been around for over 30-plus years now and if I’m not mistaking are 45-mil. Your liner, fish and you will winter over just fine. If you still have your filter running don’t worry the bio-load is lessen in October if your feedings are lessens too because of the colder weather.

It’s never too late to start an Anoxic Filter even in late fall or dead of winter. The Anoxic filter can be shut down completely and left to freeze over or kept running like mine is all winter. The bacteria that are in an Anoxic Filter are like natural systems and do not die-off even in cold weather. That’s why in early spring you do not have to reinoculate with freezdryed bacteria or bottled bacteria. Once established your good to go for life.

This last question is the best one and it always stumps everyone when they get the answer. The Anoxic Filter is not governed like conventional filters on volume of water going through it. So lets say you have an 8”X4”X18-24” deep filter. Properly diffused inlet water, with 20 -30 Biocenosis Baskets (my filter has 20 Biocenosis Baskets) in it 7000 -8000 gph easily. Your waterfall will look great with that much water going through it but you can do 5000-gph and still be safe. I show a photo of and 8000 gph small waterfall in my book on www.mankysanke.co.uk CD-Book in English....http://liofornellino.blogfree.net CD-Book in Italian .

If I told you my fish load in my 1200-gal pond had 17 large Koi in it (smallest being 16” and [email protected] 27” [email protected]” and 5 @ 18-22”) and that was with 20- biocenosis baskets in a 400-gal filter; Photo of pond in my book. That 1200-gal is filter and 780-gal fishpond. People thought I was being cruel to the animals for such a heavy fish load but it was to show people what can be done if done right. At the same time a Koi judge from our MPKS club was in my yard and had to tell people “Do not try this with a conventional filter!!! But also admitted that my fish looked very healthy and eyes were clear, color sharp and happy. Now that right from a Koi judges mouth not mine.

I hope this helps for now… :helm2:
Kevin

How do I edit a post in the past? It looks like you can only edit as you're posting and not like the next day..PLS help?
 
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What is an Anoxic Filtration System?

Anoxic Filtration System: Is a biological filtration system using Biocenosis Clarification Baskets to attract positive ions out of the water body. Using a combination of natural process clays, like that of Kitty/cat litter and tropical Laterite, a residual product of rock decay, act and react to convection, magnetic pull and/or diffusion as a biochemical reaction to attract cantons and anions out of the water column. Because of their crystalline structural state, the negative charged clay read in mV, (electrovalence) attracts positive ions like ammonium and removes it out of the bulk water.

This magnetic pull will them aid in molecular diffusion, using Facultative anaerobic hydrotropic bacteria, therefore creating under anoxic condition Dissimulative Denitrification and will turn Nitrates (NO3) into Dinitrogen Gas (N2).Thus making it safe for aquatic life to exist in ponds.

Facultative bacteria - can be found even at the top of the baskets and along the outer sides, since aerobic respiration is beneficial energetically speaking. There are also other bacteria that reside in the baskets, too. Microaerophiles bacteria - will be found throughout the basket but not at the outer edges. They require oxygen, but only at lower concentrations like that of anoxic conditions. So they stay away from the higher oxygenated outer edges because of that reason. Then there’s also an Aerotoerant bacterium - in the baskets, that can be found everywhere because oxygen does not affect them in the least nor does the deficiency (low concentrations but not completely void oxygen) of such. However, obligated aerobic bacteria - will mostly gather on the outer edges of the baskets within mm, in order to absorb the maximum amount of oxygen.




Kevin Novak Ph.D. Ichthyologist
 
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Winter and the Anoxic Filter:


Nitrosomonas can become dormant when starved of ammonia under otherwise ideal environmental conditions. They also have the ability to go dormant in cold water conditions. But both Nitrosomonas and Nitrobacter will still be working in the wintertime to some degree, and that degree is contingent upon the condition of the filtration system, its size, and available foodstuff. I understand we like to compare our pond filtration systems to sewage treatment facilities. But our filtration systems are dwarf by comparison, to such high-tech-systems.

Nitrobacter do not have this ability to enter a dormant state when starved of their energy sources (e.g., nitrite). When starved, they die. This inability to become dormant, coupled with the inability to produce spores and survive oxygen deprivation, has special importance to the pond hobbyist.

While Nitrobacter can derive all of the energy they require from the oxidation of nitrite into nitrate, they will utilize other sources if available. They can oxidize complex hydrocarbons just like the more common Heterotrophic bacteria; Nitrosomonas cannot, and are dependent on ammonia only. This ability explains why Nitrobacter did not evolve the ability to become dormant.

We as hobbyist must also must remember that in the wintertime most filtration system are closed down, shut off from all available foodstuffs, and oxygen deprivation will take care of (killing off) altogether our beneficial bacteria. The only surviving bacteria will be that which is left in the ponds bulk water. But these bacteria will now be in very limited supply, only because of lack of available surface area that the filtration system itself provided.

Some hobbyist will clean their filtration systems in early spring without the inoculation of such bacteria. Their system will seem to take forever to become fully active, do to the cold water conditions alone can hinder this cycling. Now you must add on your animal load and the ammonium that is being produced by feeding, in addition to their increased metabolic rate. Koi can (and will) feed in such cold temperatures. Algae and available plant matter will be their fist food sources. I live in Chicago were the weather here is very erratic during this time of the year. It is not unusual for my fish to be feeding once or twice a day, do to their increased activity once the filter is back on line.

That is why with the Anoxic Filtration System you start it as soon as the weather breaks, as long as your outlet from the filter to pond will not be hindered by freezing. This is typically in late winter or sooner if possible. That is because the biocenosis-clarification-baskets and any plants you my have are already working taking in the ammonium ions out of bulk water. Why other systems are barely on line, this system is already taking in ammonium ions for Heterotrophic bacteria and also for Nitrobacter and Nitrosomonas. Oxygen is never exhausted when the filtration system is shut down for the winter because of anion producer such as microbial and/or aggregate produce enough oxygen to engage or attract the carbon dioxide and that will move cations, releasing the oxygen and consequently making the baskets more aerobic. As long as the baskets stay aerobic to some degree that will hinder the production of obligatory anaerobic bacteria.

I know what I have just said is not really anything news breaking, but I don’t understand why we forsaken such technology for the latter? After all you can buy a bag of Walmart Kitty litter for about two bucks. It comes in a red and black bag of plain cat litter, no additives, just plain clay. (Only use clay –Attapulgite- that has been mined from the earth, clean, baked, and pulverized such as Kitty litter.)

I will also add right now that the foot print of the Anoxic filter is not small. This is done for a purpose. Imitation sewage treatment facilities and/or a car engine: There is no substitution for cubic inches when it comes to filtration systems or horse power.

Kevin
 

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