another leaking waterfall thread

[JCschild]

ok any ideas from the waterfall owners.
the leak is in the bottom falls. the leak seems to vary in degree from almost no water lost (evap?) to i can lose several inches in a day. i get the wind thing but have to say i am pretty sure
its not been that windy and i always look at the rocks for splash.

some idea of whats under. down the middle about 4-5 wide is left over EPDM, to the left and right would be 5/ 6 mil platic over laping may 3-4 inches under it.
also there was a large rock/boulder in the side of the 2nd level that i was afraid to remove so its actually one of the rocks in the bottom fall.
i had to cut the plastic to go around this and it does get a good amount of water there. i had foamed around this the first/2nd time i took it apart as well as surounding areas
(wished i had just went over it now with the plastic). tried to get the flow away from it as well. most the rocks tip forward so as to not have water going behind. the bottom 2 rows are actually mortored in but fear freezing will crack that quickly.

about ready to completely take it apart and buy 1 large piece of epdm and cover that stupid rock ughh. past that any thoughts..

here are a few pics. no where as pretty as most i have seen... yes i need some serious plantage already started on that

 

[Waterbug]

I don't think I ever built a waterfall that didn't leak. Fixing is really too subtle a subject to describe. But here some rules I've come up for myself.

Things that don't stop leaks...

Tipping the rocks forward doesn't stop leaks. Tipping forward is only to keep as much water as possible visible.

Foam doesn't stop leaks. If you get lucky it will slow it down to a point where you'll give up and talk yourself into believing it's fixed. Foam is used to keep water visible.

Mortar doesn't stop leaks. Used to keep water visible.

Putting down a huge liner doesn't stop leaks. Water doesn't care if it has to travel 2" or 20'.

Things that stop leaks...

Experience. Tear it down and try and find the actual problem. Then build it over. Repeat as needed.

Understand capillary action. Understanding it and then ignoring it means it really wasn't understood. Water is a patient teacher.

Solid base. Even a concrete pad. I also like the entire slope to be concrete rather than soil. I mound the soil compacting as it's built, put chicken wire over that and mortar over the wire leaving holes in the wire/mortar for plants. Reduces erosion and liner is too slick for rocks imo.

First time? Build slowly. First just liner. Run water for a few hours and then lift the overlap to see if it wicked. Then the base rock. Run the falls for a few days. 80% of the time this is where the problem is going to be. Next build the center of the falls leaving the sides bare liner so you can see if water is getting out the sides. Then the sides. Side rocks shouldn't really touch the center rocks too much. Little tricky but can be done once you get the hang of it. If flat side rocks are laid flat on those center rocks you will pull water along that side rock and get a leak.

Come up with more rules when all these fail.

 

[JCschild]

whilst not what i wanted to hear :sad: thanks man thats a great answer and i think capillary action is the cause

""If you get lucky it will slow it down to a point where you'll give up and talk yourself into believing it's fixed.""
that made me me laugh
its like you know me.

i so want to buy more fish but until i can safely run the pump without worrying...

 

[Rivermist]

OMG...

this is no good news.

Our waterfall also leaks and... built of concrete, rocks are sealed etc... but I cant tell in many places the water has worked.

I don't imagine the cost of destroying all that and having it rebuilt... We just had the 3 ponds cleaned, pond budget is done for this year...

 

[addy1]

leaks can be a real pita, but with persistence you can work through them, most of the time lol

 

[Waterbug]

I don't imagine the cost of destroying all that and having it rebuilt... We just had the 3 ponds cleaned, pond budget is done for this year...

Yes, it is expensive to pay people...and who's to say they'll do it right? Many people, and I mean many, Pond Professionals have zero training and aren't too bright to boot. That's a bad combo.

If you did ever want to do it yourself concrete / mortar is much easier to work with than people seem to think. Some light taps with a regular hammer is all it takes...not a sledgehammer. It's vibration that breaks mortar. But waterfalls are tricky. I would suggest a first time builder expect to rip out and redo at least 2 or 3 times. Chalk it up to learning. Way cheaper than taking classes and you learn more.

 

[markd]

Pulled mine out this spring. ... fish are still in winter quarters in the basement, but are pulling themselves up over the edge of the tank to look out the window....
I'm on the "build slowly" plan- but it has been chilly, so I just have liner and a few big rocks in.. ;-)
Here are my questions- as I add more rock, I will want to foam to see if I have the water going where I want it to. . . .
-Rocks and liner will be wet. . . will the foam adhere ok?
-How long do I have to wait until I start running water again?
-Any toxcicity worries? (remember fish are sulking in the basement)

Thanks

markd

 

[Waterbug]

Here are my questions- as I add more rock, I will want to foam to see if I have the water going where I want it to. . . .
-Rocks and liner will be wet. . . will the foam adhere ok?

Polyurethane reacts with water so some dampness is good. How well it adheres generally has more to do with dirt. EPDM is difficult to adhere to in any case, kind of hit and miss.

-How long do I have to wait until I start running water again?

I'd say 24 hours.

-Any toxcicity worries? (remember fish are sulking in the basement)

None.

 

[markd]

Thanks for the advice! I will start foaming this weekend!

 

[JCschild]

well found the leak i am pretty sure.. will post a pic of my stupidity tomorrow. it was what i thought the over lap area..

how to seam the 2 epdms together?

 

[addy1]

I have used this with great success, to fix leaks, to attach liners together etc. Put it on, let it dry

 

[brandonsdad02]

I have used Gold label underwater sealant. I used it around my skimmer box when I was having a problem with it leaking around the weir door. Its a savio brand skimmer box. I used to fix my skippy filter return where my closet flange was leaking on the outside to the stock tank. Then used it with the skippy running to seal up a leak around the bolts going thru the stock tank. Works great.

http://www.absolute-koi.com/prod852.html

 

[addy1]

Will keep that in mind if I ever need something else. I get locked into the go to home depot mode get what they have.

 

[JCschild]

ok this is how NOT to build a waterfall :redface:



that area was soaked i have since added another peice of EPDM and used the loctite in the pic above to seal it, will see if it leaks or not..

why is it so hard when you take apart a waterfall to get it to go back like you had it...

 

[addy1]

My deck pond started leaking, went to find out what happened. A jumping spider made a very nice nest that pathed some water the wrong way. Almost like expanding foam.