Archaea-The not so new Kids-on-the-Block

Archaea and your Pond.

  1. Meyer Jordan

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Meyer Jordan submitted a new article:

    Archaea-The not so new Kids-on-the-Block - Archaea and your Pond.

    Read more about this article...
     
    Meyer Jordan, Aug 22, 2015
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  2. Meyer Jordan

    MitchM

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    The more I Iearn about organic matter decomposition, humic substances plus the makeup of the biofilm layer, the more interesting the process of decomposition becomes.
    Thanks for this article.(y)
     
    MitchM, Aug 23, 2015
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  3. Meyer Jordan

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Remember, decomposition is the original recycling program.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Aug 23, 2015
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  4. Meyer Jordan

    MitchM

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    That would make a good bumper sticker.
     
    MitchM, Aug 23, 2015
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  5. Meyer Jordan

    EricV

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    Thanks. I will shortly begin selling bottles of beneficial archaea. :)
     
    EricV, Aug 23, 2015
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  6. Meyer Jordan

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    That is one of the other interesting aspects of archaea that has made them difficult to research. They do not readily colonize under laboratory conditions. Practically all research that has been done to date has been in the field. It is very doubtful that you will see Archaea offered as a pond supplement like 'beneficial bacteria' anytime in the near future. Gonna have to rely on Mother Nature.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Aug 23, 2015
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  7. Meyer Jordan

    Mucky_Waters

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    That may be true Meyers, but that won't stop those same people who buy "bottled bacteria" from buying bottled Archea. The fact that it may contain little or none of the viable labeled microorganism really has nothing to do with it. There is no government agency that controls these things, so it's what it says on the label that sells these things, not what's inside the bottle.
     
    Mucky_Waters, Aug 23, 2015
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  8. Meyer Jordan

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Too true!
     
    Meyer Jordan, Aug 23, 2015
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  9. Meyer Jordan

    Dave 54

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    Thank you Meyer a very inyeresting article indeed my friend and too true decompostion was the original recycling program put in place on this earth by Mother Nature.
    This had to be so otherwise we wouldnt be here we'd have died off millions of years ago me thinks :(
    Your saying that mucky got me to thinking my friend :LOL: dont we already do this, when buying bacteria for the pond be it dried suspended or liquid for all we know we are getting nothing but snake oil as you Americans like to say (y)
    Until Microbe_lift came over from the US thats all I thought we were buying , I like the fact that before this they had a grounding in human sewage and its their research through this that makes them a cut above the rest in my view and it was this grounding that first attracted me towards it on US koi Dealership websites, I swore that if ever we were lucky enough to have their company start selling on British koi websites and very I'd trial it, which I did with 100% satisfaction. Then shortly after trialing it we got really lucky in that my local aquatic shop started to stock it which was even better:cool: .

    Dave
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2015
    Dave 54, Aug 24, 2015
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  10. Meyer Jordan

    Mucky_Waters

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    Dave it seems most people are buying this bottled bacteria stuff because they believe their ponds are somehow lacking the the nitrifying bacteria necessary to colonize their bio-filters. Even if these bottles did somehow contain a significant quantity of living viable nitrifying bacteria, an established pond should already be fully inoculated. So what benefit do you feel you are getting by adding that product to your already established pond?
     
    Mucky_Waters, Aug 24, 2015
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  11. Meyer Jordan

    Mucky_Waters

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    Interesting that you brought up that they, as you put it, "had a grounding in human sewage". In other words they previously sold bottles of snake oil to the public for use in their septic systems. No doubt once they realized they could make a profit doing that they realized there was also a profit to be made selling snake oil to unwitting backyard ponders.
    This is a great picture symbolizing the use of septic system additives.
    [​IMG]
    Most studies have clearly shown that those septic system additives essentially do nothing, but on the balance probably do slightly more harm then good because the people who use them often believe that because they regularly add that stuff they don't have to have their septic systems pumped.

    I'd still like to know what you think Microbe_Lift is doing for you Dave that leaves you with the feeling of "100% satisfaction"?
     
    Mucky_Waters, Aug 31, 2015
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  12. Meyer Jordan

    Dave 54

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    The 100% satifaction comes from the fact that since we stated using it we have had no water quality issues after cleaning our filters and from the readings we get on a weekly basis that we cannot fault in any way Mucky so in our view it isnt as you call it snake oil .
    All companies diversify and for Microbe_lift it was a natural progession from human waste to fish .
    So I turn this around and ask you why you think this is nothing but expensive snake oil not only in filter bacteria but in all the other products Microbe_lift have to do with things such as sludge removal water quality etc

    Dave
     
    Dave 54, Sep 1, 2015
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  13. Meyer Jordan

    Mucky_Waters

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    Thanks for the reply Dave. I'm glad you are currently having no weekly water quality issues, but it begs the question, what sort of water quality issues were you having before that you feel was solved by the use of this Microbe_lift product?
    To answer your question as to "why you think this is nothing but expensive snake oil". . I'll say that it is only the bacteria contents of these products that I outright reject. Many of these products contain flocculating agents as well as certain enzymes and nutrients which are beneficial for a healthy bacteria colony, so I logically can't argue that these additives are "useless", but I could argue that it would make more sense, both effectively and cost wise, for most people to purchase those things separately. Take the flocculating agents, in many cases this is simple benonite clay (Koi Clay) and there are a number reasons adding clay can be beneficial to some pond not only in clarifying the water, but in adding nutrients for the fish and bacteria. I suppose if the amount of clay in in one of these product was high enough, and the dosage large enough, you might reap some of the benefits of adding clay to your pond, like from the water clarifying (flocculating) effects of the clay. There are also certain nutrients in benonite clay that nitrifying bacteria need to convert the nitrogen as well. (read here) However I'm sure it would be much cheaper to just use a product like Koi Clay, or better yet, just buy some bulk benonite clay for this purpose.
    The "bacteria" ingredients on the other hand, just don't add up. The only effective way you could transport a significantly viable nitriying bacteria colony would be to transport some sort of media with an established bacteria colony on it, and transport it in such a way that the bacteria colony would remain actively alive which would mean keeping the media moist and well oxygenated. That would preclude transporting them in an airtight bottle.
    I have mentioned this before, if take some of your established bio-media out of your pond and seal it in a plastic bag for a couple days and then open it and smell it, it will have a rotten egg smell of hydrogen sulphide (H2S). This is because all the aerobic (oxygen loving) beneficial bacteria growing on the media will die (or go dormant) in the oxygen starved environment, and the anaerobic (oxygen hating) bacteria will begin to grow, and one of their main byproduct is H2S, which is why you'll smell that rotten eggs smell.
    The main thing to remember here is that both types of bacteria will always be present in both conditions. In order for the anaerobic bacteria to start growing in the sealed plastic bag you don't have to seed it with any special bottle of "bacteria", you just have to seal the bag and create an oxygen less environment.
    Going back to what you touched on regarding the treatment of human waste. I took a couple courses on waste water treatment and worked pretty closely with some people in the field in work camp type conditions where the utilize portable waste water treatment plants ranging in size from 20 person treatment units to larger 600 person treatment plants. If ever there was a situation where getting your biological activity up and running quickly these portable waste water treatment plant would be it. In no cases did they ever add any kind of bottled or packaged bacteria products to their system. In all cases they either relied on the bacteria that was present in the waste water itself, or they transferred active bio-media, and or activated sludge along with the treatment plant, or from one existing treatment plant to another. When I asked the professionals in the field who ran these treatment plants if they ever added any sort of pre-packaged bacteria products, like those found in stores, they would laugh and say those things are not necessary, and even gave reasons similar to what I've been repeating, why they wouldn't really work anyway. What they said dovetailed perfectly with what I learned in my waste water course regarding the addition of bacteria.
    The simple fact is, all the bacteria you need for a bio-filter in a pond, or a waste water treatment plant will always be present in the water itself, and the waste products you are trying to treat. If you want to get a higher concentration of the bacteria up and running faster, you must either transfer it via activated bio-media, or activated sludge. You can't put it in a sealed box or bottle, store it on a shelf and expect to be able to use it in any practical way later, because the waste water or the fish poop you are trying to treat will likely contain more of the activated bacteria you are trying to treat then the bottle of snake oil you are dumping into your pond.
    Peeing in your pond would probably do as much, or more, good then adding a bottle of Microbe-Lift as far as the bacteria are concerned.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2015
    Mucky_Waters, Sep 3, 2015
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  14. Meyer Jordan

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    In all fairness, it should be pointed out that Ammonia oxidizing bacteria (AOB) and Nitrite oxidizing bacteria (NOB) can survive anoxic conditions. There have been several studies that have borne this out.
    That being said, the fact still remains that the addition of 'cycle booster' bacteria treatments may not appreciably speed up the establishing of a viable colony of nitrifying bacteria. There is certainly no reason, even if it does work, for subsequent treatments.
    As for 'sludge buster' treatments, as Mucky Waters stated, these bacteria are already present in all bodies of water. These treatments, at best, provide a band-aid result to the problem of excessive detritus accumulation, requiring a regime of continuous use as the organics are never truly removed from the system as would happen over time if natural processes were allowed to play out.

    On a side note concerning the link that Mucky Waters supplied about Koi Clay:
    The author states- "This means that our average one kilogram koi on an average diet will excrete 33 mg of ammonia per hour. It must be emphasised that this is not a precise amount, just a ball park figure to give an idea just how much ammonia the biological filter must process"
    I know not from what source this information was obtained, but it is terribly inaccurate.
    Fish produce 1 milligram of ammonia per 5 grams of body weight per day. A one kilogram Koi would produce closer to 9 mg per hour. See chart below-
    ammonia production chart fish weight.jpg
     
    Meyer Jordan, Sep 3, 2015
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  15. Meyer Jordan

    Mucky_Waters

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    Yes some can "survive" many adverse conditions , they are very tenacious little buggers, that's why they are everywhere. But it all comes down to numbers, and surviving and thriving are two different things. If just having some survive is enough then I could sell someone a box with one of my old shoes in it and claim it would be good for their pond because there are (NOB) and (AOB) "surviving" on it, and in all fairness as long as that old shoe was kept in an oxygen rich environment it would likely have a more thriving colony then the oxygen void confines of a sealed bottle could support.
    Maybe I should start marketing my old shoes filled with benonite clay,,,,??? :rolleyes:
     
    Mucky_Waters, Sep 4, 2015
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  16. Meyer Jordan

    tbendl T

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    Like a "clay-o-croc"?
     
    tbendl, Sep 4, 2015
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  17. Meyer Jordan

    Dave 54

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    Mucky why the sudden attack eh my friend , if you must know Idont have water quality issues never had never will and yes I throw clay in the pond am I a slave to any product the answer is no , I quoted our liking of the Microbe_lift PL because of what I see before my eyes and the trouble free fish keeping we get from adding it after every filter clean .
    At this moment in time however does it or doesnt it work is the furthest from my mind my friend and probably wont be for a few days at least whilst we remember a dear departed friend .

    Dave
     
    Dave 54, Sep 6, 2015
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  18. Meyer Jordan

    Mucky_Waters

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    I"m sorry you feel I was somehow attacking you Dave. I was simply looking for some logical reason why you felt Microbe-lift was giving you "100% satisfaction".
    You said it was because since you started using it you've had no water quality issues after cleaning your filters. It seems logical to assume that you were having water quality issues before you started using it. That's why I asked what water quality issues you feel it was helping you with???
    If now you say you had no water quality issues before you started using it, and you have none now after using it, then we can only conclude that it is really doing nothing for you except costing you money.
    Not trying to attack you, I'm just trying to follow the logic.
     
    Mucky_Waters, Sep 8, 2015
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  19. Meyer Jordan

    Dave 54

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    Oh I see, Mucky no I've never had problems with my water but by using Microbe_lift I've found that the water is that much clearer , the colours of our koi that much deeper .
    The reason we started using it is simple I had heard so much about this product so I thought we'd give it a whirl , its wanting the best for our koi that is the at the heart of things.
    I've found changes to our pond that says that at least the Microbe_lift PL filter pad innoculant gel is doing its job , the Microbe_lift sludge buster did its job in the spring so I cannot fault this product .

    Dave
     
    Dave 54, Sep 9, 2015
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