Assessment/introduction

[brokensword]

Hello All,

My name is Michael and I've decided to join the ponder ranks. I've scoured this forum and have done a lot of reading and with that, I'd like an assessment of what I plan on doing. Currently, I'm in the digging stage and about 1/3 complete. Other than that, not much is finished. In reading here about filtration et al, I came across the bog filtration idea and would like to incorporate this idea into my original pond plan, but perhaps I don't have as much room as I need. Irregardless, I'd like to still try implementing a bog filter system. I'm going to include the schematics of my plan and would welcome any comments.

I plan on having a pond with two distinct sections, divided with a removable screen system in case I decide to have only one type of fauna. Right now, I'm planning on turtles in one half, fish in the other. As an avid gardener, this also gives me a chance to get acquainted with the myriad varieties of bog/water garden plants too.

So, my current questions are these:

1) though not quite 10% of the total pond gallonage, will this bog filter do any good? I mean, will it provide any significant benefit? Because I plan on trying to eventually enclose this pond/patio to keep the mosquitoes out, I don't want the overall dimensions to change for the greater. 18' x18' is large enough for the enclosure I have in mind. This also means I don't think I'll have the amount of 'floating' matter I've read about on this forum in the form of leaves, debris, etc. I figure enclosing also takes care of predators and the local ordinances that say I have to fence in a water area for safety's sake.

2) re the bog filter: I've read that the chimney is for backflushing the system. I'm not sure I can visualize exactly what happens, here. Now, I also note that in my diagram, I've NOT chosen to supply the water to the bof via the diffuser's small end but rather, by having a waterfall drop the water from a mechanical bio filter into the chimney. Here, another question rises.
I wasn't sure if this chimney is usually open/empty but for water, but if I fill it with large rocks, ones I can easily take out, will the amount of water from the fall, which fills the chimney and then hopefully bleeds out through the diffuser, be contained by the chimney or will it eventually start to fill the chimney and leak out the top?
I suppose as the bog 'fills up' via the various gravel/stones layers, this is likely, right? Is that when the cleaning needs to be done? Or, will the system break down fast enough so that the 'bog filter' never gets that clogged?

Okay, back to the backflush; what/how exactly do I do this?

3) IF I have the pump operating all winter (I live in Michigan; not sure that this idea is practical, so any opinions re this part would be welcome as well), what happens to the bacteria/bog system? Does the whole thing go dormant like the flora and fauna?

I think that should get me started re some better perspective on bog filtration. Please feel free to show me how/if I've erred and possible fixes. I'm trying to do this on a modest budget, but do want to have success.


Thank you in advance for any and all ideas. I've enjoyed reading here these past weeks and thought I'd join so I could be educated quicker!


Michael

 

[taherrmann4]

Re: Assessment

Welcome to the forum. Addy is our resident bog expert and she will be able to help you out with it. She just started a thread today or yesterday in how she set hers up, you may want to check it out. It's called "bog" build i think. Here is the link https://www.gardenpondforum.com/bog-building-t8497.html

 

[CometKeith]

Re: Assessment

Hi Michael, Welcome! You may want to throw something short under the introduction threads because that's usually how they want you to start. I am not an expert on bogs, but regarding question (3) the beneficial bacteria die off under 50 degrees so anything that had beneficial bacteria in it will lose it. Since your fishes metabolism slows down and you aren't feeding under 50 degrees there is really no need for the bacteria anyway. Hope this helps and good luck!

 

[fishin4cars]

Welcome aboard Michael:regular_waving_emot
I think you need to read a little more on bog filtration. Some of your ideas as much as they sound good have some issues. Right track, just not fully informed on what and how it works, If you read the two artciles I have included you'll have a LOT better understnading.
This would be a good place to start. https://www.gardenpondforum.com/bog-building-t8497.html Also, if you have a store that you can get a new Ponds USA magazine, (Petsmart, Books a Million, etc) It has a great three page article on Bog filtration. Unlike Bio filtration if you have plants planted that grow year round the plants continue to filter even though the bacteria has gone dormant. One issue I see for sure that is different in your plans than in a bog filter as Addy and Pond USA have is that the substrate for the filter is small pea gravel only, no larger rocks at all. Also the Bio-filter if your going to run one needs to be run from a completely separate pump and return than the bog. The plan looks good, If your going to run a Bio-filter I would recommend running a skimmer at the far end of the pond and have it go to the Bio-filter. Even though you may not get leaves and such in the pond, The surface skimmer constantly removes surface film there for increasing oxygen level substantially. Be surprised how much more it catches and removes out as well from in the pond depending on the brand you decide to use.

 

[KennethO]

Welcome.

The chimney clean out is always capped off. The pipe at the bottom of the bog is usually 1 1/2 to 2 inches. This keeps it from clogging as much. You keep the clean out capped so the water is forced threw the pea gravel. Water will take the path of leased resistance. So between comin out the clean out or going threw tons of rocks and muck that has collected, it will choose the clean out.

To back flush, all you do is unscrew the clean out cap and shove a garden hose down it or a wire or coat hanger. If you use the garden hose, watch out how long you have the water on. Don't leave it on to long or you might get to much clorine in the pond. But if your holes in the pipe are large enough, you should never have to clean it out. I'm pretty sure Addy has not had to clean hers out yet.

It might be harder to get the water to the bottom of the bog coming from a waterfall. After so much build up it will want to just flow over it.

As for winter, I wouldn't want to run it. It will greatly lower the pond temps and start to freeze over. It might start to freeze in layers and once so high it might overflow out of the edges and into the yard.

You could make your bog first and then have it flow out and into a waterfall.

 

[brokensword]

Re: Assessment

taherrmann: Thanks for the welcome! I've seen/read that thread and that was my starting point. I'm trying to convert the 'river' part of my plan into something more beneficial, so that's why I wondered if the bog filter idea could be incorporated too. I went looking online for more complete plans than Addy has in the thread, more a hands on and materials, etc. I liked the idea that you could construct the bog almost anywhere near your pond and so, thought maybe it might work as I originally plannned (using the 'river' portion). I'll await to see what Addy can add to my illumination.

Welcome to the forum. Addy is our resident bog expert and she will be able to help you out with it. She just started a thread today or yesterday in how she set hers up, you may want to check it out. It's called "bog" build i think. Here is the link https://www.gardenpondforum.com/bog-building-t8497.html

 

[brokensword]

Re: Assessment

CK: thanks also for the welcome. I'll saunter on over to the intro threads after I get done replying.

Thanks for the info re the bacteria; looks like if I can get the system balanced, winter will just be another part of the process. Thanks for helping!

Hi Michael, Welcome! You may want to throw something short under the introduction threads because that's usually how they want you to start. I am not an expert on bogs, but regarding question (3) the beneficial bacteria die off under 50 degrees so anything that had beneficial bacteria in it will lose it. Since your fishes metabolism slows down and you aren't feeding under 50 degrees there is really no need for the bacteria anyway. Hope this helps and good luck!

 

[fishin4cars]

I already moved it to introductions, You had enough there and I figured I would save you the time and get you moving in the right direction.

 

[brokensword]

fishin: thank you for the welcome! Friendly place, this pond place...

I have already seen/read that thread. From there I googled for specifics and got this link:

http://www.bogfiltration.com/making_your_own_upflow_bog_filte.html


which shows the three different strata levels, large to small, filtering out as the water moves up and past until it reaches the upper level (pea gravel). Seems to make a lot of sense. Your opinion?

I've seen skimmers at the local pond supply place and they do work well, albeit all the ponds are 'outdoors' and exposed to the open sky. I plan on having a 'screened-in' pergola structure enclosing the area, so I'm thinking the major benefit would be to keep the surface moving, etc. But if I can fit it into the budget, I'll investigate a skimmer too.

I didn't see the second of the two threads you linked, just Addy's and that one I've already read. Do you have the other article/thread for me to read?

Thanks for the reading suggestion: I'll see to finding a copy of Ponds USA. I have bookstores aplenty around here...


Thanks again for the help!

Welcome aboard Michael:regular_waving_emot
I think you need to read a little more on bog filtration. Some of your ideas as much as they sound good have some issues. Right track, just not fully informed on what and how it works, If you read the two artciles I have included you'll have a LOT better understnading.
This would be a good place to start. https://www.gardenpondforum.com/bog-building-t8497.html Also, if you have a store that you can get a new Ponds USA magazine, (Petsmart, Books a Million, etc) It has a great three page article on Bog filtration. Unlike Bio filtration if you have plants planted that grow year round the plants continue to filter even though the bacteria has gone dormant. One issue I see for sure that is different in your plans than in a bog filter as Addy and Pond USA have is that the substrate for the filter is small pea gravel only, no larger rocks at all. Also the Bio-filter if your going to run one needs to be run from a completely separate pump and return than the bog. The plan looks good, If your going to run a Bio-filter I would recommend running a skimmer at the far end of the pond and have it go to the Bio-filter. Even though you may not get leaves and such in the pond, The surface skimmer constantly removes surface film there for increasing oxygen level substantially. Be surprised how much more it catches and removes out as well from in the pond depending on the brand you decide to use.

 

[brokensword]

Kenneth: my replies will be inline, below, simply because it's easier to reference. Thanks!

Welcome.

The chimney clean out is always capped off. The pipe at the bottom of the bog is usually 1 1/2 to 2 inches. This keeps it from clogging as much. You keep the clean out capped so the water is forced threw the pea gravel. Water will take the path of leased resistance. So between comin out the clean out or going threw tons of rocks and muck that has collected, it will choose the clean out.

>>>At this link:

http://www.bogfiltration.com/making_your_own_upflow_bog_filte.html

it shows a cut in the chimney top lip; it seems that water would flow out of there, no? I mean, IF the diffuser got clogged. But I was already wondering if it WOULD get clogged and simply because the 'holes/cuts' do seem hefty. So, would the idea of dropping water (from the waterfall) into an 'uncapped' chimney filled with large rocks work? That is, would the water flow down and fill the diffuser and then rise up past all the filtering stones/media? Or, would the fact that the chimney is open stop this process? I'm looking for a way to combine the waterfall and bog while using only the one pump, but perhaps I'll have to divert some water to the fall and bypass the bog with that port while using the other half of the diverter to send water to the bog system. Think that would work?



To back flush, all you do is unscrew the clean out cap and shove a garden hose down it or a wire or coat hanger. If you use the garden hose, watch out how long you have the water on. Don't leave it on to long or you might get to much clorine in the pond. But if your holes in the pipe are large enough, you should never have to clean it out. I'm pretty sure Addy has not had to clean hers out yet.

>>>so, the idea is to 'clear' the diffuser, then? They say to let the diffuser pipe angle upwards so that any silt that accumulates will actually be in the bottom of the chimney. I'm assuming that's so I can clean it out easier and it keeps the diffuser full of just water, right?


It might be harder to get the water to the bottom of the bog coming from a waterfall. After so much build up it will want to just flow over it.

>>>that's what I was wondering. The other link shows putting large rocks as the bottom layer to allow the water to spread out throughout the whole bog system. I was thinking that maybe the chimney, with its own share of large rock, would be an extension of this idea? I can see that if there's less pressure to go down and then up, it would flow up and over the chimney as you speculate. If you follow that link above, it shows the water coming from a pump through flexible pvc and into the capped end of the diffuser, so does that mean that the pump is actually going to force the water then up through the strata? With what I want to do, I'd lose that aspect unless I run two pumps; one for the bog, one for the waterfall. Do you think I could take part of the pump's flow and divert it as I alluded to above?



As for winter, I wouldn't want to run it. It will greatly lower the pond temps and start to freeze over. It might start to freeze in layers and once so high it might overflow out of the edges and into the yard.

>>>good thought and makes sense.

You could make your bog first and then have it flow out and into a waterfall.

>>>that may be the better idea, even if with the current layout, I'd like the waterfall to 'flow through a small river' for effect. But, you've given me something to think about and I'll see what I can do. Though a thought crosses my mind even as I type this: the waterfall would have to be pumped then from the bog, necessitating another pump, right? I mean, bog=low ground, waterfall=higher, so...

Thanks for the help!

 

[brokensword]

Thanks, fishin; I thought maybe you'd meant to 'go introduce yourself', so I hope your moving of the thread is intro enough! Not a lot I can say as I'm just getting started, though I've had salt and tropical systems for a long time. Not exactly the same but I'm already aware of the bacterial/nitrate cycle, so that helps. I liked the idea of making my pond more maintenance free ( relatively speaking) by turning my lil 'river' into a bog. Thanks for the nudge in the right direction!

I already moved it to introductions, You had enough there and I figured I would save you the time and get you moving in the right direction.

 

[fishin4cars]

The article in Ponds USA was the second one I was referring to, Sorry for not being more clear. Are you going with a roof above the pond? Trying to picture this. :lamp5:
In the different size media, I can somewhat see where some would have tryied that with some sucsess, But I don't really think it's the best technique. This is some of the discussion I would like to see in the sticky tread that Addy did. I have a bog as well. Guess I should add pictures and details but mine has more specific use and it's not set up with any gravel. Whole different concept with mine, To clean and flush mine requires removing ALL the plants. LOL, No two ponds alike!
I would have to say InMyOpinion (IMO , Sorry I use that a lot!) A good skimmer can be worth it's weight in gold. I have a savio skimmer, has the leaf basket (also used for placing barley bales in, Oyster shells, activated carbon. etc, easily removable products that could need to be used from time to time, then the water travels through two prefilters, These prefilters have japanese matting, My guess they catch aprox, 80% of the bigger debris before it ever reaches the filter. (Not good for pumping into a bog, Very good for keeping gunk build up out of streams and water fall features. The I have my UV light, savio has the option of the added UV that fits in the filter itself, very nice option, very expensive replacement bulb, Then I pump to my bio filter and to the waterfall. the combination of filtering the water through all the plants and a separate Bio-filter with a good surface area works beautiful. Not to say, I don't see areas I would like to improve. This pond site is 11 years old, First pond was 1000 gallons, then rebuilt after three years, to 1500 gallons with a waterfall, Then last year I had to replace the liner because a mouse ate a hole in the liner. Literally the whole pond was a huge mud pit. So I am where I'm at now. Things
I would change now, Deeper and no shelves, Bottom drains, Larger filter with a Vortex, reduce the # of Koi and remove all the goldfish to a new pond. Guess I'm rambling but the point is, It's all part of the hobby, You have to find what your comfortable with and use it. But be prepared, there is your budget, and there is function. A good filter is the heart of the pond, Build your pond to your filter, In the long run IMO..:lamp5: You'll be happier.

 

[brokensword]

Thanks again, fishin! My replies will be inline to your comments, below...

The article in Ponds USA was the second one I was referring to, Sorry for not being more clear.

>>>ah, okay; sorry I didn't see that. All's good.

Are you going with a roof above the pond? Trying to picture this.

>>>imagine the pond and a circular patio that make up an approximate rectangle (square, actually). I plan on erecting a pergola as the enclosing structure and fitting the top and sides with the ability to add either screens or windows (plexiglas, etc). The idea is that if I need to, I can put in the screens. If not, the air can come and go but since I'll be working to stop the predators (lots of raccoon here, herons just down the road, so...) and I'm sure my local ordinance staff will insist I 'fence' in the safety hazard that is created by water more than 2' deep, my inclination is to screen the whole structure in. And I don't really want a fence, both for looks and budget. So, a pergola is a garden structure that 'fits' with the whole outdoor relaxation scene. I can tie in new plants and garden area with wildlife that revolves around running water. Best of both worlds, imo.

In the different size media, I can somewhat see where some would have tryied that with some sucsess, But I don't really think it's the best technique.

>>>well, since filter systems tend to do this (or they use the open air bio balls and all the aerobic/anaerobic bacteria details), using increasingly smaller particulate, I can see the benefits. Filter out the large stuff, filter out until the contaminants are minute and let the plants have a whack at the end result.

This is some of the discussion I would like to see in the sticky tread that Addy did.

>>>yes, I read the whole thread and others, but I felt that thread was a bit bare bones and didn't answer all my questions, hence I went googling and found that particular link.

I have a bog as well. Guess I should add pictures and details but mine has more specific use and it's not set up with any gravel. Whole different concept with mine, To clean and flush mine requires removing ALL the plants. LOL, No two ponds alike!

>>>I'd like to see progress/step by step pics of such and more importantly, experienced results like 'how long between cleanings? How much effort/time/$$ did it use up? etc.


I would have to say InMyOpinion (IMO , Sorry I use that a lot!) A good skimmer can be worth it's weight in gold. I have a savio skimmer, has the leaf basket (also used for placing barley bales in, Oyster shells, activated carbon. etc, easily removable products that could need to be used from time to time, then the water travels through two prefilters, These prefilters have japanese matting, My guess they catch aprox, 80% of the bigger debris before it ever reaches the filter. (Not good for pumping into a bog, Very good for keeping gunk build up out of streams and water fall features. The I have my UV light, savio has the option of the added UV that fits in the filter itself, very nice option, very expensive replacement bulb,

>>>I saw the skimmers in action at the local pond place and they did seem effective. I'm thinking budget here, though, and haven't googled that yet. I suppose in time, I'd add one, esp if they prove that effective. Without actual experience, I have to listen/read what others go through and figure out which hazards I'm likely to encounter. Since I was going to have a shallow 'river' from my waterfall to the upper part of my pond, I'm trying to see if I can enhance (and reduce the maintenance) the whole system so a balance can be had.

Then I pump to my bio filter and to the waterfall. the combination of filtering the water through all the plants and a separate Bio-filter with a good surface area works beautiful.

>>>well, I'd really like to have the water go through the bog first, no issue with that, but I'd need another pump to lift the water from bog level to the waterfall, right? So that increases the budget. If I can find a way to keep this simple, I'm gonna look for it first.

Not to say, I don't see areas I would like to improve. This pond site is 11 years old, First pond was 1000 gallons, then rebuilt after three years, to 1500 gallons with a waterfall, Then last year I had to replace the liner because a mouse ate a hole in the liner.

>>>ah, a water-mouse? I mean, how can a hole that high up make a problem? I need details as this is the type of 'experienced results' that make me think!

Literally the whole pond was a huge mud pit. So I am where I'm at now. Things
I would change now, Deeper and no shelves,

>>>why no shelves?

Bottom drains,

>>>why bottom drains? I was figuring to suck most of the debris into the pump and then into the filter, where I hope most of the 'gunk' would be accessible. I'm trying for a more natural pond in that I'm expecting some bottom buildup, as long as it isn't toxic, I figure it will be a while before I have major cleaning issues. I'd hope that most of the organics would decay over time and move into the general pump/filter system and access.

Larger filter with a Vortex, reduce the # of Koi and remove all the goldfish to a new pond. Guess I'm rambling but the point is, It's all part of the hobby,

>>>Babble away; I'm listening...


You have to find what your comfortable with and use it. But be prepared, there is your budget, and there is function. A good filter is the heart of the pond, Build your pond to your filter, In the long run IMO..:nananananana: You'll be happier.


>>>yeah, I figured this. Having kept saltwater systems, I was told to get this and that while I ended up doing something less than typical. I do have a small filter system but basically, my whole aquarium is one big filter and though it does require water changes periodically, I know that the lion's share of filtering is being worked out by the live rock, which approximates to the biofilter system ponds need. So, I'm trying to more function and less technical upkeep. I doubt I'll be overloading the system. I mean, I grew up on freshwater aquariums built from concrete and glass fronts, upwards of 250 gallons plus, so I realize the benefits of a large system while noting the closed nature.

Thanks for all the advice so far and I'll be listening for more.

 

[j.w]

brokensword

 

[addy1]

Welcome brokensword!

>>>I looked at the bog build you linked to, not sure I would do it that way. Those large rocks won't do much filtration, imho.........lol, Starting with my first pond, maybe 30 years ago, I have used bogs for the filtration. This one is the biggest, had the room and wanted the plants.

2) re the bog filter: I've read that the chimney is for backflushing the system. I'm not sure I can visualize exactly what happens, here. Now, I also note that in my diagram, I've NOT chosen to supply the water to the bof via the diffuser's small end but rather, by having a waterfall drop the water from a mechanical bio filter into the chimney. Here, another question rises.
I wasn't sure if this chimney is usually open/empty but for water, but if I fill it with large rocks, ones I can easily take out, will the amount of water from the fall, which fills the chimney and then hopefully bleeds out through the diffuser, be contained by the chimney or will it eventually start to fill the chimney and leak out the top?

>>>water will take the easiest way out, I do not think it will flow up through tight gravel rather than just fill your chimney and out the top of the chimney. You could have a separate feed to the bog to bottom feed it.

I suppose as the bog 'fills up' via the various gravel/stones layers, this is likely, right? Is that when the cleaning needs to be done? Or, will the system break down fast enough so that the 'bog filter' never gets that clogged?

>>>> With my larger bogs, after my first pond little ones, I have not had to clean out any of them.

Okay, back to the backflush; what/how exactly do I do this?

>>>>>You saw the bog thread, my bog is bottom fed via pvc piping, pea gravel, plants. You would only use the clean out pipe, if your pipes get clogged, which they should not if you have a leaf basket in line to collect large stuff.

>>>>>For me back flushing is just opening the t we have in line with a ball valve. If we open it the water in the bog runs out, quite rapidly and brings any collected muck with it. So far I have emptied it once about a week ago, water was clear. (we were working on some pipes so had to empty)

3) IF I have the pump operating all winter (I live in Michigan; not sure that this idea is practical, so any opinions re this part would be welcome as well), what happens to the bacteria/bog system? Does the whole thing go dormant like the flora and fauna?

>>>>>My bog froze last winter, no pump running, as soon as the ice melted it started growing. We never had the green spring start up issue in the pond some have. So yes the bog went dormant and fires back up in the spring.

>>>>>If you are going to have a bio, mechanical filter in front of the bog, yours will stay real clean, but the plants may not be as happy, you will be removing some of the fish poop nutrients the bog likes to have.