Attaching a EPDM Liner to a concrete wall

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Hi

New to the pond world, and already frustrated. I think it is my own fault though.
Here is the situation.
I had a concrete wall poured in a rectangle on flat ground, 10'x20' 6" tall and 6" think, there is a lip on top of this that protrudes 1.5" in either direction, so the cross section of the wall looks like a "T". In the middle of this rectangle I had the concrete contractor pour a 3'x8' monolith, plumbed so that water can flow out of the top of it. I then put 2" to 3" of sand on the bottom of the pond rectangle and purchased a EPDM liner. I planned on fastening the liner to the wall just below the lip with Bituthane by Grace, (this is a waterproofing self healing tape of sorts) I meticulously installed this make sure that it was sealed against the liner and the concrete. After filling the pond to check for leaks, I noticed that it was loosing about an 1"/hr. (120 gallons). so I drained the pond and discovered that gapping had formed and the Bituthane was releasing off of the concrete. (despite the application of the surface conditioner) So I purchased a 5 gallon bucket of Henry's waterproofing tar for roofs and again meticulously applied this to all joints both between the EPDM and the Bituthane and the Bituthane and the concrete. Filled the pond again and was loosing about 1/4"/hr. (30 gallons). I once again drained the pond, and cannot find any voids or areas where it can be leaking. I need ideas or products that I might try to resolve this leaking. I am not sure if I should resort of hot mopping the pond, ripping everything out and using Gunite, or if there is a product that can be used to seal the EPDM to the edge of the concrete.

Sorry this is so long, Thanks for any help.
 

DrCase

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Welcome to the wonderful world of ponding....Have you left the pond off long enough to see were the leaking stops ? And you say you have a island in it. Does the linner on the outside go above the water level ? What happens to the liner around the island ?
 
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I have left the pond off for over 24 hours, pond is basically empty.

The island is more like a statue, it is 3 feet wide and 8 feet tall by about 10 inches deep. To apply the liner around this I measured the location, and cut a slit in the liner. I got up on a ladder and pulled the liner down over the statue. I then sealed it in a similar way to the perimeter wall. The sealing treatment extends about the water line on all sides, and on the statue. I will go out and take pictures in a couple of minutes, I think that will be much easier than trying to put this all to words.
 
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Here are the photos. I also included a photo of the other part of the feature that I did not mention. After falling down the monolith, the water fall 7.5' into a hidden pond. I have tested this part of the system extensively with no significant leaking, save splashing, (which I have a solution for)
 

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DrCase

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Wow that is cool..so when you turned it off it drained out ? fill it up with out the pump running and see what happens
 

DrDave

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Try filling it completely, turn off the pump and let the water get calm, then using a syringe or something similar, squirt milk around the suspect areas. If there is a leak there, you will see the milk trail as it escapes through the opening.
 
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Thanks, sort of a modern reflecting pool.

Anyway. . .
How it is set up: The pump (8000 gph) is in the lower (hidden reservoir), it pumps the water to the top of the monolith. The large (leaking) pool is in the middle. Which then, (passively) feeds the water back to the lower res, via the 7.5' free fall water fall.

When the pump is not running, all pools full, the large pool (in the pictures) empties to what you can see in the pictures in less than 24 hours.

So basically I am need of inexpensive, miracle sealing method. That will bond with both the EPDM and the Concrete. I can certainly remove the Bituthane and Henry's and start over with something that will actually work, or I can put something over the top of all of it. . .
 
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Dr. Dave, Once the leaks points are identified, how to seal, based on what I have done thus far. More Henry's? Is this a viable sealant that will work for the pond over the long term? Do you have any other suggestions as to other sealing options to work with.

Thanks for all of your help!
 

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My large waterfall has boulders that are too large to move by hand, that said, over time they seperated and the gaps were so large, I could fit a pencil in them. My neighbor, who is a cement contractor told me to use "Thoroseal", granted this is a concrete product but it worked for me. I used a eurothane glue (tube and caulk gun) to attach my epdm liner to the rock face of the waterfall.
So far it has worked without any notable leaks and I did this 3 years ago.
 

DrDave

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ezclone said:
Dr. Dave, Once the leaks points are identified, how to seal, based on what I have done thus far. More Henry's? Is this a viable sealant that will work for the pond over the long term? Do you have any other suggestions as to other sealing options to work with.

Thanks for all of your help!

Henrys might be ok but it would not have been my first choice, I have fish to be concerned about. Your's seems to be a water feature without fish.
 
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So what I hear you saying is. . . remove the bituthane, and henry's as best I can. Glue the EPDM to the concrete with Eurothane Glue (available at Home Depot?) and then use Thoroseal to seal the concrete and anywhere that there is gapping? Thank you for your quick responses.

Response to second post . . .

Yes just a water feature. I would have loved to make it deeper and had fish. We have, however, raccoons, and other wildlife that like to eat the fish. I just wasn't in the mood to maintain raccoon food. and did not want to have hot wires, or mesh to keep them out of it.
 

DrDave

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The urethane you want is the type used for holding or sealing windows. I figured that if it can hold windows in 100 story building, it would work for EPDM to rock or concrete. I actually did sample bonds with it and then pull tests before I used it. I imagine HD will have a suitable product. There are so many, you have to read the instructions. Get contractor grade and make sure everything is clean.
I like to use acetone to clean stuff, it is very volitile and can ignite very easily. So have someone with a fire extinguisher handy to be safe if you use it. All it take is a little spark that you can get from static to set it off.
DO NOT THINK YOU CAN DO BOTH...
 
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Thanks for the tips. I won't try to do both, as a leaking pond will be the least of my worries if I am on fire. I am going to take off the bituthane and the henrys and then clean and glue it back on the EPDM with the urethane.

Recommendations for sealing the concrete that is exposed? I have tons of Elastomeric Paint from my house. (I painted all of the exterior of my house with it, and bought too much) I know that stuff is suppose to be waterproofing.
 

DrDave

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I'm not familiar with Elastomeric Paint. Most of these waterproofers are not made for total immersion, only as a watershed. Read the directions and if they have a web site you might be able to get tech support for this question.
 

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