Before I lose all my fish - !

[Birdpond]

Hi, After not having goldfish or a pond for a few years, I ended up setting up a 30ish gallon rubber stock tank for some Shubunkins I bought at a local shop. It's been about three weeks, and I am seeing all sorts of issues. Lost a fish this morning unexpectedly (it wasn't one of those I'd been concerned about)
Set-up
80 gal per hr patio-pond pump/ filter set on gentle force (Found there are no sponge filters at local shops so may have to order)
Do large water changes daily
Water source: Well
Feeding commercial flake and pellet foods

Suspect my first mistake might have been cycling tub with Rosy red minnows from my little species tank. But, I have not lost one rosy in the months I've had them (except for one due to fuse blowing and filter being off for a day while I was away working while that tank was still cycling. Immediately upon resetting plug all remaining fish were fine)). No symptoms of disease or parasites. Of course, I suspect they might be harboring parasites despite their robust healthy appearance.

So the minnows in the tank are fine BUT the ones in the pond are now 'rushing' and scratching, so . . . .Did the Shubunkins bring the problem?

A couple days after introducing Shubunkins, I noticed mouth fungus on one - But the biggest one (photo) had none, He seemed very shy, skittish but was eating and looked fine otherwise (note it's hard to see the fish in this black tub - It's in my garage. There are windows in garage door and door to yard so they are not in dark all day). With overhead garage lights on there is glare. All to say, I try but have trouble seeing the fish clearly and spotting issues, which I hadn't been expecting.

Then began scratching/rushing of various fish. I change

at least some water every night, sometimes nearly 50%.

Last night the biggest (the one in the photo) didn't come out to eat (Yeah I added a bunch of washed (with well water) rocks etc in there because they all seemed to crave hiding places, almost like cichlids - Which is strange but I've never kept Shubunkins before and thought maybe the babies preferred hiding places). I sat and watched for him to make an appearance and he never did. So I suspected the worst, but as it was after 11 pm had to get to bed. Of course I found him this morning). He was the largest, only about 3" long.

Remember, in the tub, I wasn't able to see his side or belly - Had he been in an aquarium I might have spotted the this earlier. As it was, when I found him floating this morning, and scooped him out I noticed dark bruising (?) on his ventral . SORRY for the poor quality images - The photos were taken after I'd finished taking care of the horses this morning so he'd been in the fridge for a couple hrs, and my old fridge runs cold - hence he is a little frozen now and redder overall (which he was NOT upon discovery - He looked perfect, bluish-white and smooth except his red gill covers ( I think they call these culls 'pinkies' for this reason) and for the obvious bruising underneath).Note: the bruises were more greenish bluish upon discovery and now they turned brownish, but at least you can see the placement.

Have no test kits or meds on hand - If needed would appreciate recommendations -

SO is there any way at all to figure out what happened? THANKS -

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Definitely a water quality issue. You do not indicate how many fish are in each container nor what level of filtration is on each container. It could very well be an issue with the well water (it is easily contaminated) that is stressing the fish thus weakening their immune systems.
Without the numeric results of a complete water quality test, there is no absolute way to determine the source of these problems. Sorry!

 

[Birdpond]

Definitely a water quality issue. You do not indicate how many fish are in each container nor what level of filtration is on each container. It could very well be an issue with the well water (it is easily contaminated) that is stressing the fish thus weakening their immune systems.
Without the numeric results of a complete water quality test, there is no absolute way to determine the source of these problems. Sorry!

Hi, thanks for responding. The minnows are ten in a 5 gallon used Galaxy5 setup to which I added a biomass bag I made into the filter system. They are thriving. The pond has 3 minnows (the ones I cycled with) and now 5 SMALL baby Shubunkins 2" or less. The pond is wider at top than bottom, so much surface area.

Both are on well water (the only source of water here, I drink it as do my horses and dogs).

May I ask what you think the bruising indicates? My google search turned up nothing on that as a symptom. Thanks -

 

[Meyer Jordan]

May I ask what you think the bruising indicates?

I would suspect that what you are calling bruising is actually bacterial infections.
You state that you are doing large water changes daily. Do you know how close the water temperatures of the two containers and the source water are? Too large of a differential will surely shock and stress the fish. In addition, about the well water, you can not compare yourself or your livestock to your fish. A vast difference in both size and basic physiology. I once had a client whose fish were all dying and was on well water. Copper levels in this water were high enough to be lethal to all of the fish, but not at a high enough level to cause any health issues in himself or his family.

 

[sissy]

You may have to test your well water and is the water from your well sent through a filter .Plus well water and you set up water could be drastically different in temperature like said .You can buy test kits for wells from hardware stores or sometimes the county here offers them free .

 

[Birdpond]

Wow, you've got me concerned now about my well! The minnows must be tough enough to not be effected? I would think low level toxins would eventually cause illness etc in humans - I've been on this micro-farm about 3 years and have been generally healthier than ever in my golden years, but copper etc would be cumulative, wouldn't it? Maybe I need to address this possibility for my own health, too, as well as my horses etc - Not sure what I could do about it unless there is a special filter that would neutralize water coming out of the well -

As for temps, they feel very close in temp when I do the changes. I change with buckets (tub on floor, no place downhill for the siphon to flow to), and try to pour in new slowly but maybe it's still too fast for them - Not seen any shock-type behavior, but perhaps it's delayed. Frustrating and disheartening. Just did about a 70% change and tried to squeeze some bio media into the submersible pump filter. May not make any difference.

Oh, want to add one thing - The shop where got them, told me a week later that they'd lost virtually all their Black Moors (in the adjacent, connected tank in their fish section) despite treatment. There is a possibility my Shubunkins were infected when I got them - Maybe. Those moors seemed to succumb to fungus on their fins. But that's not a diagnosis, just my observation of the last, wasted, wobbly, weak survivor in the tank(who was likely dead within a day). Even so, different symptoms, so maybe not related at all to my fish who are all fat and active (when not hiding).

<sigh>

Guess at this point I'll have to wait and see how the others fare - Would adding salt or something help increase their odds?

 

[Birdpond]

You may have to test your well water and is the water from your well sent through a filter .Plus well water and you set up water could be drastically different in temperature like said .You can buy test kits for wells from hardware stores or sometimes the county here offers them free .

Ahh just saw your reply here (I was busy writing and didn't see it come in). Thank you, I do need to get a test kit. No filter that I know of (I have never been on a well before so this whole thing has been a learning experience). Thank you for that advice!

 

[sissy]

My well is my first since I was a child in NJ and when I retired to VA I had a lot to learn .I installed my whole house filter but with the heavy rains I test my water .My well is 400 feet in the ground so water gets really cold .So I use either rain water I collect or fill buckets with water and let it stand for awhile .I am a forever young 63 Test kits you can buy at lowes or homedpot ( not cheap ) but county here in VA offers them cheap or free sometimes .I used to pay 1.99 and now pay nothing since I am over 62 .Do you have a jet pump or submerged pump for your well .Jet pumps as they call them here are for shallow wells .

 

[Birdpond]

My well is my first since I was a child in NJ and when I retired to VA I had a lot to learn .I installed my whole house filter but with the heavy rains I test my water .My well is 400 feet in the ground so water gets really cold .So I use either rain water I collect or fill buckets with water and let it stand for awhile .I am a forever young 63 Test kits you can buy at lowes or homedpot ( not cheap ) but county here in VA offers them cheap or free sometimes .I used to pay 1.99 and now pay nothing since I am over 62 .Do you have a jet pump or submerged pump for your well .Jet pumps as they call them here are for shallow wells .

Hi Sissy, thanks for responding! I have no idea but am told it's a bored rather than drilled (? if I haven't mixed them up) because I don't have a larger circuit breaker for it. At any rate, a shallower one. It used to get very cloudy/muddy after a heavy rain but a really nice older 'country' folk small business replaced some underground tubing that had a leak, and since then I've not noticed any staining after a storm.

I'm in GA so the water doesn't get as cold as VA (I don't think) and the water in the tub stays cold in the garage (although that will change as summer comes on).When I detect a difference I will have to set buckets out to warm first. Assuming I still have fish by then.

We are having worse and worse droughts here, last summer was TERRIBLE, my pastures all turned to dust for months on end and I had to start buying hay in late spring - Unheard of! This year is better but, I doubt collecting rain water is a viable, reliable option here any more. (Although a decade ago or more, rain during summer was pretty reliable, a t-storm every afternoon that would clear up to sunshine in an hour or less.)

 

[sissy]

I live 15 minutes from the NC border near Eden NC .I know about those weird storms ,all the water runs off because the ground is to hard .I had an underground tnk put in when the house was done and 2 of my gutters run into it and I just add fertilizer to it and drop a pump and during August that water does not last long .I think that is the main reason farmers here dig ponds to help a little .So far this spring has been a very wet one .You can buy a liquid test API test kit to test the water the fish are in .Any pet store has them and even walmart has some of the tests .I had to replace my well pump a couple of years ago and not fun and it was not easy pulling over 400 feet of piping .Never did it before but live and learn .I did remember my dad and I doing it while I was growing up so that helped .I only have a little over 3 acres here but other house near Bedford Lake has almost 12 acres and has frying pan creek running through the property and that even goes dry in August .Have to buy food for the horses from a local farmer .

 

[sissy]

Could the fish have been sick before you bought them also .

 

[Birdpond]

I live 15 minutes from the NC border near Eden NC .I know about those weird storms ,all the water runs off because the ground is to hard .I had an underground tnk put in when the house was done and 2 of my gutters run into it and I just add fertilizer to it and drop a pump and during August that water does not last long .I think that is the main reason farmers here dig ponds to help a little .So far this spring has been a very wet one .You can buy a liquid test API test kit to test the water the fish are in .Any pet store has them and even walmart has some of the tests .I had to replace my well pump a couple of years ago and not fun and it was not easy pulling over 400 feet of piping .Never did it before but live and learn .I did remember my dad and I doing it while I was growing up so that helped .I only have a little over 3 acres here but other house near Bedford Lake has almost 12 acres and has frying pan creek running through the property and that even goes dry in August .Have to buy food for the horses from a local farmer .

Off topic but - What kind of horses??

 

[MitchM]

I would stop all water changes until you've tested both the pond water and the source water.
API makes a good starter master test kit.
http://www.apifishcare.com/product.php?id=670#.WRJY_PkrKCo

The contents of the test kit can vary by geographic region, so make sure you also obtain a KH/GH test kit separately if you don't get one in the master test kit.

I would not recommend adding any salt, additives or treatments until you test your water.

.

 

[Birdpond]

I would stop all water changes until you tested both the pond water and the source water.
API makes a good starter master test kit.
http://www.apifishcare.com/product.php?id=670#.WRJY_PkrKCo

The contents of the test kit can vary by geographic region, so make sure you also obtain a KH/GH test kit separately if you don't get one in the master test kit.

I would not recommend adding any salt, additives or treatments until you test your water.

.

OK will do. Thank you MitchM. Also just realized I saw a symptom but hadn't realized (until I just now saw it in another fish, the one who has the little bit of fungus on the face) - Rising as if to feed on the surface but instead sipping air then diving and blowing out the bubble. Since the (sick) ones seem to be hiding most of the time, I have to be able to sit by the tub for many minutes before they come out. When the one that ended up dying first did this, I mistakenly thought he had just been missing his food flake, but now I see that 2nd one doing the same.Seems they both stopped eating once I spotted that behavior. Darn,. I expect this one to be dead in a day or two, too.

In the meantime, I will stop doing water changes and try to get a kit after work tomorrow.

The others (knock wood) seem OK and eating -

 

[sissy]

scuttlebut is a Tennesee walking horse .The others are rescues