Bottom Drain


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I now see the error of my ways. I worked with only the surplus I had on hand. (preformed ponds) and lessons learned are
1. they are very hard to repair or modify
2. not deep enough to prevent total freezing in my zone even with aeration.

Now to the point,
I have read the importance of a bottom drain, advantages and disadvantages but lets take this idea to the next level.

I am planing on doing a total DO-OVER on my upper pond by removing the 300gal preformed and making a new "lager/deeper pond with reinforced concrete that will be sealed with at least 2 coats of epoxy.

here is my thinking outside the box idea, working with a depth of at least 4 1/2 -5' and having a large grid made of 2" PVC and crossed drilled numerous amounts of times with a 1/4 drill and covered with 3/8 pea gravel at least 2" above the PVC and networked in to a 3 1/2 bottom drain (gravity). I will get the best of both worlds.. a bottom drain with a bio filter.


This worked very well in my lower pond and kept my ponds very clean.

Thought? ideas? improvements?

Thank you
stay safe and healthy
 

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brokensword

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I now see the error of my ways. I worked with only the surplus I had on hand. (preformed ponds) and lessons learned are
1. they are very hard to repair or modify
2. not deep enough to prevent total freezing in my zone even with aeration.

Now to the point,
I have read the importance of a bottom drain, advantages and disadvantages but lets take this idea to the next level.

I am planing on doing a total DO-OVER on my upper pond by removing the 300gal preformed and making a new "lager/deeper pond with reinforced concrete that will be sealed with at least 2 coats of epoxy.

here is my thinking outside the box idea, working with a depth of at least 4 1/2 -5' and having a large grid made of 2" PVC and crossed drilled numerous amounts of times with a 1/4 drill and covered with 3/8 pea gravel at least 2" above the PVC and networked in to a 3 1/2 bottom drain (gravity). I will get the best of both worlds.. a bottom drain with a bio filter.


This worked very well in my lower pond and kept my ponds very clean.

Thought? ideas? improvements?

Thank you
stay safe and healthy
ditch the cement idea as it's unnecessary (more cost, more labor without gaining much from letting the earth be your walls), get a liner (very forgiving of leveling, shape, ect, cheaper than concrete), ditch the bottom drain (unnecessary; more cost, labor, functional value only for DKP).

Now, let's talk bog filtration. Your 'underwater gravel bio filter is workable but not nearly like you COULD have with bog filtration. There's a reason water is FORCED up through the pea gravel bed of a bog and it's NOT with gravel just lying on the pond bottom. And I'm not saying it isn't functioning ( I have gravel, thin layer only, on my winter pool/pond for my turtles for the same reason you do; bio filtration) because it is but turning more water volume over/past said bio surfaces is better than letting the fish and falls move it OVER the top of your gravel bottom. And, if you go the bog route, you can bypass any other store bought units you might feel inclined to get. Once done, your bog is all you need and guess what? NO maintenance. Nope, nada; just occasional thinning of plants to maximize what that part of your bog is doing for you. You can sit back and not clean pads. haul up submersibles, clean them, put them back, at any sort of regular basis. You don't have the maintenance of drum filters, sand filters, pressure filters, pads and bio media to keep in motion, etc. There just isn't any to a bog filter. ANNNNDDD, you get more places to plant pond plants than you had before.

So, unless you're into DKP (dedicated koi pond), you'll be a lot happier and further ahead eschewing those ideas listed above. Easier to install (pond and bog), more slack re shape and size, a LOT less labor on your part, LESS cost and better security re pond leakage as cement ponds, even those done correctly, will eventually crack and then leak, causing you to maintain that part of your pond now. A liner will move WITH The earth and not against it as cement/concrete will do. Huge advantage this. This plan ALSO eliminates any more labor/cost associated with your underwater grid mechanism; you don't need it. I think you're approaching this like it's an aquarium and you don't have to; nature has different ideas and vectors for trouble. Simple is better on both you and the pond system, imo.

Hope this helps.
 
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This project is still in the thought process. even though I have a very stable running system that works well with minimal amount of maintenance. what I can not prevent is deep freezing from a shallow pond.

So a bog filter is a "up flow bio filter"? reverse to what I was suggesting? how does one control the roots from clogging the grid? At this time I'm not dismissing the bottom drain this still could be used to feed the bio filter.

Because I am working on a non controllable slope and have the potential of under ground water purging up to the surface even with drainage under a liner how would one prevent Hippo? beings I have no experance working with a liner how would one deal with liner over lap in corners? I though this was not good and unsightly.
 
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brokensword

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This project is still in the thought process. even though I have a very stable running system that works well with minimal amount of maintenance. what I can not prevent is deep freezing from a shallow pond.

So a bog filter is a "up flow bio filter"? reverse to what I was suggesting? how does one control the roots from clogging the grid? At this time I'm not dismissing the bottom drain this still could be used to feed the bio filter.

Because I am working on a non controllable slope and have the potential of under ground water purging up to the surface even with drainage under a liner how would one prevent Hippo? beings I have no experance working with a liner how would one deal with liner over lap in corners? I though this was not good and unsightly.
yes; upflow

You'd put a pipe under/at the sides of your dig and route it away from the pond, which is OVER your pipe. You place this pipe(s) under, have a snorkel up and via ground (hydrostatic?) pressure, any water that collects INSIDE these pipes will be forced up your snorkels and out the top. @GBBUDD can probably explain it better, but that's my understanding.

MOST of us don't worry about folds/corners because in no time, it's covered in algae and you'll not notice. Unless you're doing a DKP, you'll WANT this algae and other assorted plants for the surface and margin; these will take care of any visuals.
 
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Harleys have never been quick by comparison. We just don't waste our time learning ebola hiba huba . Where the tortous in the race the one everyone runs to when sht go south. And we are so far south today with stupidity it will take decades to fix
 
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@GBBUDD @brokensword

There's are no other options I MUST go deeper and if I'm going deeper, so I'd might as well go bigger. One reason I am entertaining concrete is I must stop the rocks on the left side and the huge rock natural waterfall from moving. (photo #1) after that I will except a liner option. This photo was in the build process. 330gal with only a 19-20 working depth, it has frozen solid even with aeration. Also with a depth of 19" there is no temperature zone to speak of.

With the second photo all the rocks along the border were dug out of the ground (except for 1)

I as I do with most of my sh** will re purpose this upper performed pond as a bio filter (further questions later)

I am not afraid of hard work, all this was done with a pick, shovel, small rototiller, block and tackle and large pry bars. (by my self) I'm retired with nothing better to do but over think sh** and stay busy. Idle minds are the devil's work shop.

Now on to bio filtration as I read in a earlier post I believe from @GBBUDD your bottom drain must go through a filter of some sort to prevent clogging your pump and or bio filter from the bottom. regardless of where the technology comes from Fish tanks or DKP (haa got one) a bio filter is a biological filter regardless on what way the water flows through it. if the bottom drain is incorporated with a pea gravel filtration system the the biological process is still working. Also it can be maintained from the top side with a vacuum pump of some sort. No chance of loss of wildlife or other from becoming stuck in a suction line.

Please do NOT take this as a stab in the back post. it is not my style. I'm just letting you know what I am up aganst and trying to figure it out before I put my shovel's back in the ground.

PS the large filtration system has been eliminate and the smaller preformed pond is a reverse flow bio filter. I only run 1 small pump with less than a 1/3 of the flow bypassed back into the EQ tank.
 

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brokensword

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@GBBUDD @brokensword

There's are no other options I MUST go deeper and if I'm going deeper, so I'd might as well go bigger. One reason I am entertaining concrete is I must stop the rocks on the left side and the huge rock natural waterfall from moving. (photo #1) after that I will except a liner option. This photo was in the build process. 330gal with only a 19-20 working depth, it has frozen solid even with aeration. Also with a depth of 19" there is no temperature zone to speak of.

With the second photo all the rocks along the border were dug out of the ground (except for 1)

I as I do with most of my sh** will re purpose this upper performed pond as a bio filter (further questions later)

I am not afraid of hard work, all this was done with a pick, shovel, small rototiller, block and tackle and large pry bars. (by my self) I'm retired with nothing better to do but over think sh** and stay busy. Idle minds are the devil's work shop.

Now on to bio filtration as I read in a earlier post I believe from @GBBUDD your bottom drain must go through a filter of some sort to prevent clogging your pump and or bio filter from the bottom. regardless of where the technology comes from Fish tanks or DKP (haa got one) a bio filter is a biological filter regardless on what way the water flows through it. if the bottom drain is incorporated with a pea gravel filtration system the the biological process is still working. Also it can be maintained from the top side with a vacuum pump of some sort. No chance of loss of wildlife or other from becoming stuck in a suction line.

Please do NOT take this as a stab in the back post. it is not my style. I'm just letting you know what I am up aganst and trying to figure it out before I put my shovel's back in the ground.

PS the large filtration system has been eliminate and the smaller preformed pond is a reverse flow bio filter. I only run 1 small pump with less than a 1/3 of the flow bypassed back into the EQ tank.

no issues here, mate; everyone has to be comfortable with what they think will work in their case. it's ALL interesting to me. If I (gasp!) ever talk bog filtration over at KoiPHEN, they'd all shake their heads and call a doctor for me, insisting I'll not do well with so many koi and so little water and no thousands-of-dollars filter gear to take care of them. And yet, I'm doing just fine. Most of the time when I suggest stuff, I have low cost and low maintenance in mind, also understanding 'you get what you pay for' and 'best not to skimp on XX, etc' philosophies.

It's a lot of work re concrete and cement but have at it! My dad was a bricklayer and I helped (long ago), and have done my own cement work re basement floor, garage floor, sidewalks, soooooo, HAVE FUN! :D:D;):)
 

addy1

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how does one control the roots from clogging the grid? At this time I'm not dismissing the bottom drain this still could be used to feed the bio filter.
Mine is deep, about 2.5 feet, no chance the roots can reach the grid. I have no bottom drain, pull the water from about a foot or so from the bottom. (external pump)

The pipe is covered with a 5 gallon bucket drilled with a ton of 1/4 in holes. That keeps the draw from sucking in critters, fry, etc.
 
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@addy1 @brokensword , My complete system works by way of gravity and I only run 1 pump to recirculate water. I like the K.I.S.S. method (keep it simple stupid) I have no means of moving a 3k+ lbs rock (photo 1) red handled shovel leaning on, this must be stabilized from the underside to prevent it from sliding into the pond area, I really don't think the hydraulic pressure of water on the liner would be enough to stop mother natures forces pushing this rock in. once I am comfortable this rock is stability I will highly consider a liner option. also weighing heavily towards not going with the bottom drain idea. risks out weigh the benefit. I get it, The risks of leakage with a bottom drain is much higher than without. also I loose power here... a lot, Sometimes for days and the potential of the upper pond draining completely out is to high of a risk for me. so I will most likely go with the "negative edge" falling into a reverse flow bio filter design and some sort of aeration to keep the bottom of the upper pond microbe active.

I can not thank you all enough for your input/advice.
Please stay safe and healthy.
 
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The only filter I use before the pond water goes to the bog is a standard exterior pump with its strainer basket.

I have both types of bogs the matrix bog and a pea stone.
When I first got the idea of the bog I was thinking as you are with pull the dirt down through the gravel in the pond. Which in actuality I am but only through larger rock not pea stone. Reason being I had a couple fish get to close and get stuck with there long butterfly fins. So a placed an aqua block panel atop the two main drains and buried them under from 3/4 to 8 inch rock. The water goes to the external pump hits the strainer basket grabs any rocks or plant matter and pumps to the bottom of a 7 foot deep pit with a 24 inch culvert that was cut out with 2 inch slits in the lower ribs of the culvert. This is where any large debris is allowed to settle with only approximately 4000 gph into a 24 inch tube 12 feet long that meets a second vertical 24 inch culvert. The idea is for the flow to be reduced to only displacement. So the debris settles in this area that can be cleaned but so far after 4 years I've got very little out of it.
The water in this area again is displaced by volume not flow and is allowed to rise up through baseball sized layer of rock about 8 inches worth. Where it then enters the matrix blocks or better known as aquablocks. There again the water is allowed to settle let anything that remains in the water to hopefully fall out of the water as a floater and sinks to the bottom of the aquablocks. I call this area the farm where the bacteria micro organisms , plankton , water creatures have a cave where they can swim without preditors such as fish they feed and break down the plant matter or left over food that makes it this far. All the while there is no chance of clogging at this point its gone through a 24 inch pipe and now it sits in matrix blocks 18 x 12 x 32" I belive they are, all placed together making a 8 foot wide by 14 foot cave we'll call it. It's at that point baseball sized and smaller are placed over the matrix and then they are covered with a foot and a half or more of 3/4 river rock . I have not used the 3/8 pea stone to me its just a little to fine for my liking. And in that 3/4 stone is the plants roots now if I had to do it over again I would go with 24 to 30 inches of stone ontop of the matrix blocks so that way even the deepest roots like found on cat tails can't grow into the blocks and while they wont clog the blocks flow they will restrict a little more then I wish I had at this point. Is there a problem now. Not that I am aware of but 24 inch would have insure no roots ever would be. If I needed to yank a giant papyrus for instance tie a rope onto it and yank it out it would only be in the stone. Now there is always going to be blockages within the stone and that's where the gravel sizes as they change and the pressures build up again as they get into the smaller gravel nature finds the path of least resistance. So as one area is allowing water to flow through today as it clogs very time the pressure will flush out an area that had little flow before. Nature finds a way. What has amazed me about the bog and it will only get better as it matures is the incredible diversity I see . I have found baby koi in that 24 inch culvert. They got sucked through the drain pipe past the impeller of the pump and pushed down to the 24 inch pipe where they live. I have seen worms what looks like water catapillars . Sand fleas Daphnia dragon fly lavea all kinds of stuff I never added to the pond. They are eating something and it's better them then algae. Ok so there's a bog in a nut shell . Oh and there's always the plants that pull out the extreme fines in the water the minerals and compounds that are in the water that mechanicall filters don't do so hot pulling out . Not like the way the plants can. So the faster the plants grown like creeping Jenny. Lotus. Penny wart though becarefull with that one. The faster a plant reproduces and grows the less chance algae has to grow.

Can I be done now . This was more work telling you about it then I spend working on the bog in three months
 
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@GBBUDD I can not thank you enough for your time. I have researched your pond build and had to read your response a few times just to draw your system in my head. WHOLE SNYKIES your filtration system is amazing and you covered every aspect bio filtration thoroughly. (head shaking in amazement) As I see it in my head is its not over kill, just large enough to allow bio system to work at its own pace with some reserve space.

I will warn you well in advance that I will ask you for more on your set up in the future.

Thank You
Stay safe and healthy
 
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Glad it helped ,

That is what has worked for me EVERYONE here will tell you if asked how they created there bog. or what they think of them and you'll get a different response form each and everyone. So this is not you must do this or you must do that. @addy1 HAS A PEA STONE BOG WITHOUT ALL THE MATRIX AND CULVERTS. her system is far simpler with a pvc 2" bladder, row s of pvc pipe that have slits or holes dilled in THAT FACE DOWN and the water is pumped down to the bottom of the bog and dispersed somewhat evenly across the entire bottom of the bog then at least a foot if not more of pea stone is dumped into the space plants thrown in and whala a bog and hers has been running for over ten years. In the 4 years that i hav4 been in this hobby it has worked and worked very well.
 

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