Bottom Drains and skimmers

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How necessary are these for a garden pond.

I've been reading Koiphen and, of course, they all use them because of their fish loads.

But for a garden pond, with a light to moderate fish load is a bottom drain necessary? Also, I'm planning on building a raised pond (probably 1.5 to 2 feet above the ground) with no trees overhead. So is a skimmer necessary?

Trying to plan my first pond and I'm a little confused. Of course all the vendor sites recommend you by everything. But I'm trying to figure out what is really necessary, and what is a sales pitch.

Pond will be roughly 900 - 1500 gallons, lots of plants, goldfish (no koi), maybe a bog.

So where do I start.
 
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I use neither in my 1600 gallon pond. Just get a net with small holes and scoop the bottom from time to time. I have a 1300 gph pump near the bottom with a uv light built in, and about 70 gallons worth of containers filled with gravel for filters. The water falls back into the pond from the containers. Has been a winning combo for 2 years with pond stocked about 50 gallons per fish.
 
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If you are willing to continually scoop all the time like DP, or you don't mind sludge accumulating on the bottom of your pond, or debris floating on the surface, then no, a bottom drain or skimmer are not "necessary".
If, on the other hand, you don't like debris floating around on the surface of your pond, or sludge accumulation on the bottom, and you'd like that chore taken care of automatically, then you might want to think about installing them.

I've had ponds with and without those things, and I can tell you I prefer having it taken care of automatically.
 
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Lets be clear, like the OP, I do not have many trees around or much other junk blowing into the pond. When I say from time to time, I mean once a month tops, and there is not much down there at all. Where did you get the idea that I "continually scoop, all the time"? Also, there are a number of knowledgeable posters who advocate for some sludge on the bottom. I know you like to disagree with nearly everything I say but by making gross misstakements, you arent helping anyone, including yourself.
 
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dieselplower said:
Lets be clear, like the OP, I do not have many trees around or much other junk blowing into the pond. When I say from time to time, I mean once a month tops, and there is not much down there at all. Where did you get the idea that I "continually scoop, all the time"? Also, there are a number of knowledgeable posters who advocate for some sludge on the bottom. I know you like to disagree with nearly everything I say but by making gross misstakements, you arent helping anyone, including yourself.
I didn't disagree with you. I simply stated various pros and cons to having or not having a bottom drain and skimmer. Nor did I say you scoop more than once a month, I just pointed out that it was a continuing (ongoing) thing if you want to keep it clear, especially the surface skimming. As I said, you don't even have to do that if you don't want to.
The fact is most people install some sort of skimmer, but very few install bottom drains, but from those that do I have yet to hear any complaints from anyone who installed them and said they wish they hadn't, or that they were a waste of time and money. Actually I generally hear the opposite.
Bottom drains and skimmers aren't necessary in swimming pools either, but usually they install them because it helps make the ongoing (continual) maintenance so much easier.

And I don't recall disagreeing with nearly everything you say either, or at least if I have I haven't noticed. sorry
 

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Since you plan your pond to be above ground, installing a gravity fed bottom drain should be relatively easy. You just need to open your valve once a while and all the crud at the bottom should flow out automatically.

"Necessary" is a loaded word. Your pond will accumulate crud on the bottom. Do you want to scoop, vacuum it out, or do you want to drain it out? My humble opinion is that for a raised pond is that if I were building one, I'd put one in.
 

koiguy1969

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I dont use either on my outside pond. but they have their advantages. i have a raised pond in my basement. i have pump returns aimed so they keep a constant whirlpool effect going on the pond floor. when i feed i scoop it out...3 times daily. takes 10 seconds. now this is in a indoor pond..no plants, no algeas, no debris but the fish wastes. i do use a skimmer on this pond...dust, fines, are what it catches. but skimmers are also about the most effective aeration you can have for a pond. even better than air stones and pumps.
heres a copy and paste from an article on skimmers...
animated119.gif

Did you know that most oxygenation for ponds take place by way of the ponds surface area absorbing oxygen directly from the atmosphere. Those air pumps we use that create thousands of little bubbles that rush to the surface of the pond and explode really do very little to oxygenate. For oxygenation to occur those bubble need to have contact time with the pond water so they can give off the oxygen but they move so fast that there is really minor oxygenation that takes place. It is where the bubbles break up the surface of the water that the oxygenation takes place. Well a pond skimmer is constantly and rapidly breaking up the surface of the pond too. Pond skimmers oxygenate at a much greater pace, with more oxygen being absorbed into the water because the skimmer is constantly increasing the ponds surface area. - See more at: http://fullserviceaquatics.com/pond-maintenance/skimming-your-pond/#sthash.XU05D0Ye.dpuf
 
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archimedes said:
I've been reading Koiphen and, of course, they all use them because of their fish loads.
Yeah, I call them Koiphen ponds. They're all basically the same design. Fine ponds to be sure, but not a type of pond I'd be interested in, too much stress, too much complexity for me.

On the other end if you go to a Wildlife Pond forum you won't find anyone talking about bottom drains. They're talking about how to get decaying organic matter into the pond, what to add to jump start the pond. Also a fine pond to be sure.

Two completely different views on bottom drains and skimmers, and both 100% correct for their goals. Now a Koiphen person will almost never understand a Wildlife Pond and just seem to think those people are a bit crazy. Wildlife Pond people think the same of Koi Ponds. Then within each type of pond you have individuals who think all ponds should be just like their pond. If they have 2 skimmers they will explain at great length why every pond should have 2 skimmers and serve up little backhanded insults just to be sure you know your place. Nothing to do with ponds and everything to do with human behavior.

Water Gardens are some place in the middle.

My suggestion is not to lump all ponds into the same pot. It will just drive you crazy. I've read Koiphen for years. Much of the info they provide can be useful in other types of ponds. But I only learn what they're doing, I don't think it's the only way. I've also read Wildlife Pond forums for years, lots to learn. That doesn't mean I think every pond should have chicken manure added at start up. But I do learn how a pond reacts to that which helps my understanding of other types of ponds. Take data were you can find it.

If you first decide on the basic type of pond you want and then find a place that discusses that type of pond it will be a lot less to deal with.

To answer your question directly, a garden pond doesn't have to have a bottom drain or skimmer. My guess is 95% don't have a bottom drain, most that do aren't very effective. My guess is 80-90% don't have a skimmer. Talking backyard Water Garden, plants, Goldfish, maybe a couple of Koi type pond, probably a garden gnome.

I ran several ponds for years without either BD or skimmer. Ran ponds with just a skimmer and ponds with BD and skimmer.

I do like a skimmer. The install effort, cost (100% DIY for me), complexity and maintenance makes sense for my goals. I don't mind floating leaves on the surface, but when the light is right the water surface can look dull and dusty, and that's what it is, dust laying on the water, too light to break the surface tension. Skimmer keeps the surface pretty dust free. So to me a skimmer is normally worth it of a pond isn't too small.

Bottom drains are a big complex system when designed to work well. When you amortize the install time for a BD system over say 20 years I don't think you'd be saving any actual time. You just paid more up front. There is also continuous cleaning of BD filters and maintenance. Compare all that to say vacuuming 2 or 3 times a year, I don't think there's any comparison, BD are not time savers.

Now there are lots of people with BD systems who allow crap to accumulate in a settling tank or some other filter that only gets cleaned once a week or every few weeks. They say it's easy. Well yeah. If fish poo and dead algae is allowed to sit in a filter in the water column it's still in the pond, decomposing. Takes less than a week for fish poo to decompose so most of it is suspended in the water. They dump their filter and see a lot of dirty water and think wow this thing is working great, but really, most of the waste is still in the pond. So to me a poor BD system is the worst of both worlds.

The most I ever went without cleaning a pond that had no skimmer, BD or pump was 5 years. That pond was under a huge dying Oak tree. OK, that was a huge mess to clean. Probably 20 bushels worth of muck (does anyone even know what a bushel is any more?) remove. Bent a swimming pool pole lifting a net full out. Foul as foul could be. Fish loved it. Lots of bugs to catch and eat as I was cleaning. In that worst case I probably spent 8 hours total in 5 years. Later I vacuumed 2-3 times a year, about 1 hr per session. Much easier, keeps pond clean.

People with BD systems often think everyone else has to continually clean their ponds with scoops or vacuums or other primitive tools. Sure read that a lot. Don't know why they think that, seems to make them happier about their BD system I guess. But the reality is you don't actually have to continually clean a pond.

Some ponds, very high fish load and heavy feeding, do have to be continually cleaned to keep fish alive. A good BD system is required in that case. That's a different story.
 
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JohnHuff said:
Since you plan your pond to be above ground, installing a gravity fed bottom drain should be relatively easy. You just need to open your valve once a while and all the crud at the bottom should flow out automatically.

"Necessary" is a loaded word. Your pond will accumulate crud on the bottom. Do you want to scoop, vacuum it out, or do you want to drain it out? My humble opinion is that for a raised pond is that if I were building one, I'd put one in.
Providing you place vortex at the end of your bottom drain these ponds are really easy to keep clean , as John says seeing as you are building above ground installing a bottom drain is very easy we run three other filters in sequence from the vortex the last being our bio filter.
We drain the vortex once a week and viod the detritus to drainthen simply do a 30-40% waterchange ( even throughout the winter using the trickle method where you trickle water into the pond via a water filtration unit to scrub the chlorine out of the water .
Trickling in the water at a very slow rate allows for the ambient temperature of the pond to heat up the water as it trickles into the pond, done correctly you wont loose any warmth from the pond.

rgrds

Dave
 
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Reading the other posts here I have to add that unless you are willing to put in a proper filter system after a bottom drain they are not worth putting in.
I suggest what you do is actually check out as many ponds as you can, see if they have any pond tours locally, look at the ponds and find out what type of filter systems they are using and what sort of pond maintenance routine they do. See if you can actually be there when they do their cleaning, that's the only way you'll get an idea of what it's all about. Just make sure you find some ponds that actually do have bottom drains and skimmers, and some that don't.
After that it comes down to what kind of pond you personally want.
Some people are quite happy to allow 20 bushels (186 gal) of muck to accumulate in their ponds, others not so much, we're all a little different. You have to figure out what your own personal bushel threshold is. :dunno: Then build your pond accordingly. :cheerful:
 
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What part of Central Florida? There are a few folks on here that would probably be more than willing to give you a tour of their pond. You are welcome to come see mine. Orlando Koi Society does a pond tour in the spring. It is very well attended, both by Koi folks and water garden folks.

I have a Water Garden. It's starting it's 4th year I think. I've rebuilt it and added on to it each winter.

Keep in mind, this is Florida. We really don't have an 'off' season. Our ponds go and accumulate stuff and debris 365 days a year. I'm under a lot of oaks so yes, I have a high rate of fallen leaves in my pond. I also have a high rate of wind blown stuff in my pond. Florida, storms, wind, rain. Stuff happens.

The way my pond is built, I really could not have done a single bottom drain, and multiple bottom drains for a meandering 1200 or so gallon pond just wasn't in the cards for us. Like somebody else pointed out, you need the filtration system for the bottom drain to work properly.

I do really wish I had put in a skimmer. In fact, I had planned to retro-fit a Savio Compact Skimmer this winter. Instead, this winter I will be having knee surgery. Moving around the pond and cleaning stuff out of the pond, netting, cleaning filters .... with my good knee fouled up and the always really bad knee, well right now I really, really wish I had that skimmer in place.

Your image of how a pond appears when you sit beside it to enjoy it is how you should determine your filtration needs. Along with the amount of time you want to provide to cleaning. I don't mind scooping leaves and gunk off the bottom of the pond. During the growing season, its tough to get it all because of the water plants covering the surface. I'm a gimp, so using filtration and cleaning methods that are more congruent with my mobility challenges is a plus. I saw one pond on the tour that used a ladder to get into and out of a filter pit. Loved, loved the pond. But I can no more climb a ladder than I can dash out of a rain storm. Clambering into and out of pond isn't something I should be doing without a spotter around. So, yes there are times I wish we had functional bottom drains. But overall, I'm fine without them. Skimmer though, I really want a skimmer and wish I had it now.
 

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My idea is that the gravity fed bottom drain is actually just a flush. It doesn't go back into the pond. You only open this once in a while to flush out the crud. Because your pond is above ground, it just flushes out by gravity. Now that I think about it, it's even better because you can keep this bottom drain open all the time and just let water drip out via a hose to your plants and water drip in constantly. Dang, I've forgotten what this is called - constant water change thing.
 
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Mucky_Waters said:
I didn't disagree with you. I simply stated various pros and cons to having or not having a bottom drain and skimmer. Nor did I say you scoop more than once a month, I just pointed out that it was a continuing (ongoing) thing if you want to keep it clear, especially the surface skimming. As I said, you don't even have to do that if you don't want to.
The fact is most people install some sort of skimmer, but very few install bottom drains, but from those that do I have yet to hear any complaints from anyone who installed them and said they wish they hadn't, or that they were a waste of time and money. Actually I generally hear the opposite.
Bottom drains and skimmers aren't necessary in swimming pools either, but usually they install them because it helps make the ongoing (continual) maintenance so much easier.

And I don't recall disagreeing with nearly everything you say either, or at least if I have I haven't noticed. sorry
I dont care if you disagree with me. I have been known to be wrong about things from time to time. I just dont see it being helpful telling a newbie that if they don't install a bottom drain they will be netting their bottom out all the time like DP and will have a lot of sludge build up. Yeah, if they live in the woods and have too many fish, maybe they will. That didn't seem like the case. When I was first digging my pond I did some reading as well and also thought I needed a bottom drain based on what people were saying. Being inexperienced I was just not wanting to cut a hole in my tarp and since I was digging in what felt like concrete, I just decided to not do it. I don't regret skipping it, although I do think it would be nice to have one. Anyway, Im over it. Have a good day.
 

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I have a skimmer but no bottom drain. I'm designing my system loosely after what I do in my reef tank. The skimmer for obvious reason, but I've lined the bottom with a 3-4" layers of river rock (2-3" sized). I'm actually hoping to collect some gunk and create an environment for anaerobic bacteria for denitrifying nitrate to nitrogen. Don't know if it's actually working except the water params are good.
 

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archimedes said:
How necessary are these for a garden pond.

I've been reading Koiphen and, of course, they all use them because of their fish loads.

But for a garden pond, with a light to moderate fish load is a bottom drain necessary? Also, I'm planning on building a raised pond (probably 1.5 to 2 feet above the ground) with no trees overhead. So is a skimmer necessary?

Trying to plan my first pond and I'm a little confused. Of course all the vendor sites recommend you by everything. But I'm trying to figure out what is really necessary, and what is a sales pitch.

Pond will be roughly 900 - 1500 gallons, lots of plants, goldfish (no koi), maybe a bog.

So where do I start.
I put in a skimmer, no bottom drain, bog for filtration. I netted the bottom last spring (2012) went to do it again last month for the first time, there was not enough muck on the bottom to make it worth while to net it.
I like the skimmer, I have two apple tress and one maple near the pond, the skimmer gets rid of the seed spinners, the flowers, and the dropping leaves. It also adds some water circulation to that end of the pond.
 

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