Creeping jenn

[Shdwdrgn]

I think you're missing the overall reason behind my suggestion of testing the water. OP said they have an algae bloom and they don't know why. Performing a water test would give them some indication of the conditions currently present. OP didn't give a lot of details, but it does sound like this is a Summertime occurrence, so it could probably be narrowed down to either overfeeding or a build-up from Fall leaves still in the pond. Either of these situations could be determined by a simple water test, but the solutions are vastly different. As you already mentioned, algaecides are not a permanent solution in any situation, but this is a recurring problem. How can we give suitable suggestions to the problem without first knowing what conditions have caused this problem?

 

[crsublette]

Waters tests entail being proactive to know/address the problem with the correct solution before the problems occur.

Fixing problems upon observations is reactive, never caring to teach nor learn as to why the problem occurred due to concern the lesson might "not be understandable" ...

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure...

Our small 100 to 10,000 gallon ponds also can be much more easily hindered or overtaxed than a 100,000s of gallons actually natural small ponds.. Small mud ponds, with its sediment layers, have are far more natural ecosystem than our plastic lined ponds.... Plastic lined ponds the size of @addy1 's are far more natural than any of ours. Suggesting our ponds are "natural" is a romantic idea to make people feel good while they observing their pond going through a transition...

There are some ponds that actually never self correct... this is why water tests are important to tell us the correct solution that goes beyond "nature".


Believe it or not... there are people that NEVER experience a Sping/Summer transition period in their pond....

...the fact that transition periods, significant algae blooms, happen in rare locations of Nature is quite irrelevant... our pound is not Lake Michigan nor the Amazon river.


@Shdwdrgn I absolutely agree with ya...


On a personal note... I am getting tired of all of the forum contributor showmanship and sluggards in this hobby (in all forums).


(( Sorry @Lorri , I am not directly addressing you here. ))

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Algae blooms are a recurring Springtime event in nearly all fresh and salt water bodies of water. Algae blooms are caused by primarily one thing....high nutrients, Nitrogen (as Ammonia or Nitrate) and Phosphorus. A water test is not needed to arrive at this conclusion. The only non-intrusive method of dealing with an algae bloom in the Spring is time. Any externally introduced control will only thwart the establishment of the food chain leaving a biologically unbalanced pond. Algae blooms at other times of the year are also caused by high nutrients only the source of these nutrients is, without a doubt, poor maintenance and/or overfeeding. Ideal solution here is clean up the pond and limit either the food supply or the fish population. In both cases, a water test is not necessary, but can be performed just to verify what is already obvious.

 

[MitchM]

If there is excess algae present, the only water test I *might* perform would be for KH.
The algae is going to keep growing until the nutrient source is exhausted.
Remove the algae until it stops growing. Yes, it might take a while, but the pond didn't get over loaded with nutrients overnight either.
Stop feeding the fish as well.

.

 

[crsublette]

Any externally introduced control will only thwart the establishment of the food chain leaving a biologically unbalanced pond. .

So... since "cleaning the pond, reducing fish feeding, and reduce fish population" is an externally introduced control that "could interrupt the food chain leaving the pond unbalance"....

...then we should not do anything "externally" to resolve this... right?

Ideal solution here is clean up the pond and limit either the food supply or the fish population.

Never mind... my bad.. "externally introduced controls" are allowed to resolve "externally introduced problems"...

I guess THEN "externally introduced controls" do NOT "thwart the establishment of the food chain leaving a biologically unbalanced pond"...

 

[crsublette]

... EVERYTHING we do in our ponds are "externally introduced" ... even down to our fish naturally reproducing, leaves falling into the water, rain significantly diluting the pond water, etc.....

Does this mean we should NOT utilize "externally introduced controls" to resolve this by actively testing, actively removing fish, removing leaves, possibly doing water changes, in fear of disrupting the food chain? Of course not....

...the idea that our ponds are just as "natural" as "nearly all fresh and salt water bodies of water" is quite foolhardy....

 

[Shdwdrgn]

Algae blooms are a recurring Springtime event in nearly all fresh and salt water bodies of water.

I would object to this idea. My pond had a natural algae bloom the first Summer I built it, which is always to be expected. However the next two Summers there was no sign of green water at all. It wasn't until the third Summer, after as many years of tree leaves building up on the bottom, that I started getting string algae. I still never get a Spring time algae bloom however I have string algae year-round (the crap even survives a hard freeze!), and I have spent the last three years learning to be much more careful in cleaning out the leaves and trying to get the string algae under control again. I've also never seen this happen in natural ponds except where there was very poor water flow or large areas of stagnant water.

Ideal solution here is clean up the pond and limit either the food supply or the fish population. In both cases, a water test is not necessary, but can be performed just to verify what is already obvious.

I'm not sure I follow your logic here. First you said leave it alone, let nature take its course, and the algae would clean up by itself, now you're saying change pretty much everything. If the cause of the algae bloom is so obvious, then why can't you point to the specific cause? Sure, we all know that algae signifies an excess in nutrients, but there are a number of different nutrients that algae will happily feed on. Each one of those nutrients has a different source and requires different actions to take care of -- and "let nature take its course" is by far the surest method of helping someone to wind up with a stagnant cesspool.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

If the cause of the algae bloom is so obvious, then why can't you point to the specific cause?

You can. Excess phyto-plankton.....high Nitrate, seldom Ammonia....overfeeding and/or fish load too high. Filamentous algae.....high Phosphorus.....excess amount of organic detritus (leaves, twigs, uneaten fish food, etc.).

"let nature take its course" is by far the surest method of helping someone to wind up with a stagnant cesspool.

Odd, in 20 years of installing and maintaining ponds have I ever seen this happen. There are many others on this forum that would agree.

 

[adavisus]

Besides cutting down on fertile inputs such as excessive fish feeding, in England the most effective plant for abstracting and starving out the fertiliser which is promoting the algae is going to be azolla

 

[crsublette]

Hands off. Watch and wait. It will happen!

What if people do not want to "watch and wait" for 1 to 3 months for the pond to finally clear? ... wait many weeks to actually enjoy their fish rather than their algae...

...plus... some small ponds... inherently have volatile waters... and they may actually never clear up at all.

 

[crsublette]

...and "let nature take its course" is by far the surest method of helping someone to wind up with a stagnant cesspool.

I tried that back when I first started this hobby a long time ago.... My 450 gallon pond actually filled with string algae, insanely thick, and killed many of my fish and frogs... basically, it wound up being a stagnant cesspool.

My small pond was also not full of leaves and I actually was NOT feeding my fish at all...


... I finally figured out the reason... Birds (specifically the big black ones) were taking cat food pellets, from my feral farm cat feed bowls, to the water, dipping the pellets a few times, so then they could swallow the food...

I finally noticed this once I saw all sorts of cat food pellets in my stream...

...also, the birds were using my center basalt fountain rocks, in my pond, to drink and also crap alot in my pond... lol... and boy can those big black birds crap alot.


...oh... and by the way... @Shdwdrgn ... don't bother with Meyer... If you aren't careful, he'll send you a nice private mail stating how he will now be blocking you due to "superfluous" posts, as he has done with me already. He actually does not care what you think.... He just wants to express himself on the matter rather than have an actual conversation...

 

[crsublette]

Hi I have a big problem again with a murky, green and blanket weed. I have used all various products and the blanket weed seems to be clearing but it is still green. I have used various products for this to but it hasn't improved at all. I have many creeping jenny's around the pond and rocks they have creeped beautifully but are all about a foot into the pond could this be the reason why the pond is so green? I am at the end of my teather with the pond as had similar problems last year. I had it built for my disabled daughter but it has just turned into a great big money pit. Help please

@Lorri ... Patience... Young ponds take a while to finally mature so the outbreaks do not happen so often... can take up to 3~5 years for a young pond to mature or even longer...

Stop using those various products if they aren't helping.

Meyer is correct about the concern of sediment and plant trash in the pond building up since this is fertilizing your pond to fuel your algae problem... If this is noticeable, then you may need to get a pond vacuum to try to suck as much as you can out of the pond.

Also, stop feeding the fish, if you have any... The fish will find food from the algae and insects and snails...

May take 1~2 months for your pond to clear up.

Add some plants as well... Plants will help to speed this "transitioning" process along once they start to grow.


@Lorri ... I hope you're still with us and I apologize for being a bore in your thread... Just stick through the rough patches with your pond and you will be rewarded with a relaxing pond...

 

[Lisak1]

What if people do not want to "watch and wait" for 1 to 3 months for the pond to finally clear? ... wait many weeks to actually enjoy their fish rather than their algae...

...plus... some small ponds... inherently have volatile waters... and they may actually never clear up at all.

Just sharing an opinion from my own experience. They can do whatever they want. I have observed so many people getting into the treat-treat-treat cycle as one chemical "solution" after another just leads to a never ending problem. I've also observed that some people consider ANY algae to be a problem that needs to be treated. Learning to observe your pond as it goes through natural changes each season can save a lot of time, money, and aggravation over the long haul.

If a pond is so heavy with algae that it never clears, then there may be an ongoing management problem - too many fish, too heavy handed with the feeding, not enough plants, too little water flow, not dealing with accumulated debris, or even a poorly designed pond are all possibilities. Treating the algae is just addressing the symptom, not the cause, and will make the problem even worse by adding to the decomposing matter in the pond.

 

[mgmine]

The surest way to keep your pond clear is with a good UV light. It's a small investment for a the benefit that it provides.

 

[crsublette]

@Lisak1 Yep, definitely the primary cause needs to be addressed... but once the algae is already present... what do you do... What if people do not want to "watch and wait" for 1 to 3 months for the pond to "naturally" clear?

From what I have seen, algae treatments only become a problem if the primary cause of algae does not want to be addressed... Algae treatments simply allow plants time to grow without algae interfering in the plant process of waking up while going into Spring or Summer. Ultimately, plants OR water changes OR filtration are the dominant nutrient consumer vehicles that actively displace nutrients OUT of the pond. If people want to use algae treatments... then they also have to do one of those three things (plants or water changes or filtration) to then remove the nutrients from the pond...

A pond that "naturally" clears up still retains the nutrients that created the algae. The nutrients just simply changes vehicles. Changed vehicles, that once was algae, now is various plankton or other organisms that feed the fish and other creatures in the pond. This natural food is awesome, but the nutrients are still in the pond. You just don't see the nutrients as algae. Problem is this process takes a long time to be created for some folk every Spring or Summer transition, especially true for small ponds that have very volatile water quality.


Generally, the path of least resistance cost the least money... This is where "watch and wait" is advantageous...

If a pond owner does NOT want to "watch and wait" every year... then I do NOT shake my head at them... since their are other options for them, except of course this will cost them more money.


My impression is that @Lorri is in the situation of using algae treatments, but then not addressing the primary cause. The primary cause has to be addressed...


To address the primary cause may mean a combination of vacuuming the pond AND/OR stop fish feeding AND/OR doing a water change AND/OR wait for plant growth to increase AND/OR add more plants...

@Lorri needs to first address the primary causes and THEN "watch and wait".


@Lisak1 ... I think you and I actually agree more than we disagree on this.