Curvature of koi's spine, "at a loss to explain it".........


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Two of our koi have mysteriously developed curvatures to their spines just a week or two ago they were both perfectly straight , we noticed it when our friend Lee came over to help with some photo's for the koi show , he noticed that our albino or Aka Kigio had developed a kink in its back.
We then noticed that our largest and oldest koi a duitsu aged 28 had also developed a marked curve to its spine and has trouble when turning left .
So what is the cause of this curvature could it be a lack of Vitamins "No" as this years food is new and chockablock full of them.
Electrical fault was our next best bet where there is a leaching of electrics into the pond from one of the air pumps perhaps or even the pond pump again the answer is "No" as all of us had this been happening would have completed a circuit and all been electricuted .
Organophosphates "No" as weve not used any.
Cloverleaf treatment of the pond again "No" as its a totally natural treatment and does not harm fish.
Plain old shock can cause a koi to bend "Possibility" but I doubt it .
Which only leaves one thing a lightening strike "we did have a thunder storm in the last week" and the Aka kigio looks to have developed a redness or blood trauma to of some of its scales and the Largest has damage to the center of one of its doitsu scales half way down the body on the side the curve is.
Even with what Val and I know about koi we are going to call in our expert formerly head of the BKKS health standards committee in the form of non other than Brian our very own clubs health man.
We will be bringing him in to verify our suspicions of a lightening strike and also to see if there is anythong we can do to to correct this curvature .
However they should survive and just have a deformaty
A friend just said you've just been unlucky thats all the odds on a lightening strike must be one in a million

Dave
 
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Wow! Well I guess it could be worse, but your poor fish! Would it affect only several and not all in the pond like that?
 
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Wow! Well I guess it could be worse, but your poor fish! Would it affect only several and not all in the pond like that?
Yes Lisa its a hit and miss sort of thing , we have stainless steel screws in the pond in three areas , the new inflow , the old inflow/now overflow and bottom drain , as Lee suggests if it entred the ground anywhere within a set distance from the home , then there is a strong possibilty that they would conduct the electrical charge of a strike to these particular fish.

Dave
 
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I have some curvature on one of my Orfe and did a little research a couple of weeks back. I don't have a conducting pond either so it wasn't that. Various causes are attributed, but the one that seemed most sensible is simply being in a pond/water that doesn't give their muscles as much chance to be used properly as they would be in nature, ie in a large lake. Similar to Killer Whales I think - captive Killer Whales often have a floppy fin for much the same reason.
 
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I have a Yamabuki Ogon with a curved spine. His head is crooked, and gets more and more crooked the older he gets. He's only two years old though. He developed this very early, and I just assumed this was an inherited scoliosis and nothing to worry about. I never looked into it or anything.

Now that I saw your discussion on lightning and electrical shock, I Googled it and was surprised to see so many koi owners experiencing this. I'm now wondering if this could possibly be what is causing my koi's problem. I have six shubunkins and six koi, and he's the only one with this issue. I have two submergible pumps and a set of submergible lights. They're all plugged into GFCI plugs, and I've never felt any sort of tingling or anything when I reach my hands into the pond. Hmmmm...
 
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I actually just went out with my multimeter and checked the voltage of my water (stuck both electodes into the water), and it read anywhere from 10 to 100 millivolts. I then unplugged everything and it read the same. I was surprised to get any reading at all after everything was turned off. I'm wondering if this is just background voltage from the dissolved ions in the water maybe?
 
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I have some curvature on one of my Orfe and did a little research a couple of weeks back. I don't have a conducting pond either so it wasn't that. Various causes are attributed, but the one that seemed most sensible is simply being in a pond/water that doesn't give their muscles as much chance to be used properly as they would be in nature, ie in a large lake. Similar to Killer Whales I think - captive Killer Whales often have a floppy fin for much the same reason.
Agreed Johan but that wouldnt explain the smaller koi and the thing is why now I didnt notice anything untowrds prior to today and we had a Massive beast of an orfe we gave to a local lake and Garden centre owner last year that had been in the pond for a good 5 years .
The chap who came over to collect it and a number of koi who is the aquatic centre manager on the same site said he had never seem such a large and in such perfect condition as the one we gave him that day.

Dave
 
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I actually just went out with my multimeter and checked the voltage of my water (stuck both electodes into the water), and it read anywhere from 10 to 100 millivolts. I then unplugged everything and it read the same. I was surprised to get any reading at all after everything was turned off. I'm wondering if this is just background voltage from the dissolved ions in the water maybe?
Will check on that max when I can get one but I seriously doubt its that , why no electric shock ?

Dave
 
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Will do Tula as you can im,agine this has us rather worried to say the very least :cry:

Dave
 

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Gee, bummer! The only thing that I have ever heard of [but remember that my experience is very limited...] is having to do with electricity, and that was the first thing I thought of, as well. But why does it disable them and not kill them outright? And why only some and not all?

Oddly [and this has gotten me thinking....], I've lost 2 goldfish over the past couple of months. Neither one showed any visual signs of injury -- they were simply "floaters." Both fish apparently died during really bad thunder storms, and it was during and after the storms that I found them [2 separate deaths, different storms at least a month apart]. Water has tested fine, even with all the rain. Both were small-to-medium size fish. Now this has got me wondering.......
 
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Gee, bummer! The only thing that I have ever heard of [but remember that my experience is very limited...] is having to do with electricity, and that was the first thing I thought of, as well. But why does it disable them and not kill them outright? And why only some and not all?

Oddly [and this has gotten me thinking....], I've lost 2 goldfish over the past couple of months. Neither one showed any visual signs of injury -- they were simply "floaters." Both fish apparently died during really bad thunder storms, and it was during and after the storms that I found them [2 separate deaths, different storms at least a month apart]. Water has tested fine, even with all the rain. Both were small-to-medium size fish. Now this has got me wondering.......
Same here Maggie , have you noticed any of your goldfish developing a curvature of the spine ?
Vitamin C deficiency is another reason for it however you may well be right .
I've just been researching more into this curvature and this is what I came up with it makes very interesting reading however our koi are not as pronounced with their curvature as the Author of the article who I'm friendly with in South Africa please read then like myself try to illiminate all the other causes :-

http://www.koi4u.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=86:kinked-back&catid=4:case-studies&Itemid=19

Hopefully we wont loose these two but their bending may become more promouced in the next attachment there is a photo of a large yellow ogon who is bending but due to a tumour , if I took a photo then put our largest side by side they have identical curvature but without the tomour :-

http://www.nda.agric.za/docs/AAPS/Articles/Aqua/Fish Diseases and Health/koi husb.pdf

Let me know if you find any bent fish in your pond :happy:

Dave
 
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Wow, I'm sorry to hear this Dave.

Are they still eating? Are they able to swim normally?

The most common causes of bent spine that I know of are vitamin deficiency, stray electricity, and tuberculosis.
 
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What makes me a bit more worried is the redness under the scales you mentioned. Any idea what that is or what is causing it?

When is Brian coming over to look at them?
 
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He couldnt make it over tonight work comitments but he should be over tomorrow/today
They are both stilleating but the largest seems frustrated that he;s facing right and has difficulty with his left side
A plus point is that they are both still eating which is good , reading through the two attachments we can hope for a 85% recoery but they will be slighly miss shapen for the rest of their days .
Thankfully they didnt get damaged swimbladders through this because that prognoses could have been fatal or leaving us treating them for ulcers every so often .

Dave
 
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Didn't have a chance yet to read your links (too hard to read on phone) yet but I will.

Please update once Brian comes over and takes a look at them.
I emailed my friend Spike who was Brians opposite number in the AKCA , this is what he said about it :-

Dave,

I've only had one "bent" fish in my pond. It was due to electric shock. It recovered when I put it in green water for a few months. It was a young fish.

Other things (besides electric shock) may cause bent bodies. I think toxicity is another one of those but I have no idea how to fix them.

I'm sorry but that's all I have to offer.

Spike
So we have two possibilities electric shock/lightening or perhaps toxidity .
All our perameters are normal so that rules out ammonia toxidity "So what am I missing".?
Preping the wood around the pond involved a good old-fashion scrubbing of the decking "something I've done for years during my Naval and pre Naval days".
I made sure nothing went into the pond water and was extremely careful around the upper part of the wooden surround , besides nothing could be that fast acting.
However my next question is what sort of preservatives are in decking ?
Any ideas anyone please ?

Dave
 
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Something I have just remembered and Jeff just confirmed it wasnt only us effected we had a power cut during he night I dont know if that would have any particular bearing here though .
We think it was off for approximately 3 hours before they restored power , we only realized it when we got up in the morning but surely test kits would have picked up on this cut was around the time of the storm

Dave
 
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I actually just went out with my multimeter and checked the voltage of my water (stuck both electodes into the water), and it read anywhere from 10 to 100 millivolts. I then unplugged everything and it read the same. I was surprised to get any reading at all after everything was turned off. I'm wondering if this is just background voltage from the dissolved ions in the water maybe?
If you put both electrodes into the water, you won't read anything that's meaningful. You have to have one probe on what you want to measure,and the other on "Earth" or "Ground", so you read the potential voltage difference between them. "Earth" or "Ground" is always 0V, except in fault condition,

What you're probably reading is floating current inside the volt meter.
 
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