Curvature of koi's spine, "at a loss to explain it".........

[MitchM]

...Various causes are attributed, but the one that seemed most sensible is simply being in a pond/water that doesn't give their muscles as much chance to be used properly as they would be in nature, ie in a large lake. Similar to Killer Whales I think - captive Killer Whales often have a floppy fin for much the same reason.

I have the same concern. Exercise.

How does one determine that a fish is getting sufficient exercise?
I frequently find fish in both my outdoor pond and indoor aquariums, swimming in areas where there is strong current.

How does a koi keeper provide adequate facility for koi to exercise?
(or any large fish for that matter)

.

 

[max384]

Not chemicals Maria enzymes and minerals thats all nothing else

Max I borrowed my neighbour Jeffs volt meter running one electrode to earth in the ground the other in the pond itself we came up with a reading of 0.9 so we can rule faulty electrics out of the equasion .
Yours should be about the same as our reading when you do it again

Dave

It's been raining here and I've been working long hours, so I haven't gone back and checked the voltage again, but I'll report back when I do.

I have the same concern. Exercise.

How does one determine that a fish is getting sufficient exercise?
I frequently find fish in both my outdoor pond and indoor aquariums, swimming in areas where there is strong current.

How does a koi keeper provide adequate facility for koi to exercise?
(or any large fish for that matter)

.

What I did when I built my pond was to have one of my pumps (a 900 gph skimmer pump) empty directly back into my pond. I ran the outflow hose to about the middle of the deep part of the pond and have it empty out so that it creates a circular current (my pond is roughly circular). There is always a current in my pond in all but one shallow area. I designed the current flow like this on the advice of members here to provide a bit of forced exercise.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I have the same concern. Exercise.

How does one determine that a fish is getting sufficient exercise?
I frequently find fish in both my outdoor pond and indoor aquariums, swimming in areas where there is strong current.

How does a koi keeper provide adequate facility for koi to exercise?
(or any large fish for that matter)

.

This is why horizontal dimensions of a pond are or equal, if not more, importance than depth.

 

[Tula]

I built my pond without shelves, as I was told it reduces their swimming space and they like / need to swim up and down as well as around the pond. Last summer when I put in big my aerator, at first they were spooked by it, a little while later I noticed they were swimming in it's current.

 

[Dave 54]

This is why horizontal dimensions of a pond are or equal, if not more, importance than depth.

When the pond was built it was recognised that the old inflow would cause the water current to circle around the pond in its old foot print of one of two Hananumi of Yeovil Summersets koi QT holding ponds .
So that is now empolyed as an overflow to the system aand another inflow was installed midway dowwn the pond so that the water current can come directly out from the pipe and slowly disapate across the pond so they the koi can use any dimention of the pond to swimaround and not be forced into a holding pattern around the pond all the time .
This was done with forsight and was seen as greatly important in stopping any loss of muscle from one flank or the other .so that isnt a problem Brian recognised that and factored it into the build .
Besides those koi where poles apart size wise so why the smaller koi developed the kinking is a mystery.
Also no other large fish has developed any kinking , which brings us back to "being struck by lightning".

Dave

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I believe that lightning is certainly your culprit. Thunderstorms are almost a daily occurrence in my area at certain time of the year. I have seen lightning strikes completely fry entire pond circuits- outlet, GFCI, and pump. I have seen them cause fish to jump out of ponds. I have seen them , on multiple occasions, induce the muscle spasms that cause the bent spine state. I have even seen one particular fish be affected with its spine bent in one direction only to be affected a again a couple of weeks later bending it spine in the other direction shaping the poor fish like an "S". He still survives after 5 years. Lightning is insidious and can affect objects at quite a distance from the main storm. It will travel wherever the existing ground charge takes it, branching as it goes, and will dissipate only when it is completely neutralized.

 

[Dave 54]

I built my pond without shelves, as I was told it reduces their swimming space and they like / need to swim up and down as well as around the pond. Last summer when I put in big my aerator, at first they were spooked by it, a little while later I noticed they were swimming in it's current.

It sounds as our ponds are very similar Tula there is a straight 4.5 ft drop on the sides of the pond.

Dave

 

[Dave 54]

I believe that lightning is certainly your culprit. Thunderstorms are almost a daily occurrence in my area at certain time of the year. I have seen lightning strikes completely fry entire pond circuits- outlet, GFCI, and pump. I have seen them cause fish to jump out of ponds. I have seen them , on multiple occasions, induce the muscle spasms that cause the bent spine state. I have even seen one particular fish be affected with its spine bent in one direction only to be affected a again a couple of weeks later bending it spine in the other direction shaping the poor fish like an "S". He still survives after 5 years. Lightning is insidious and can affect objects at quite a distance from the main storm. It will travel wherever the existing ground charge takes it, branching as it goes, and will dissipate only when it is completely neutralized.

Thank you Meyer , what you've just said it ties in exactly with what weve been discussing here in the UK , we just got exeeedingly unlucky that by a million to one fluke weve had a lightening strike on the pond .
Others have said the same thing in my chats to my contacts in the fish world, they often take in such koi as pets themselves and all do well some with severe "S" shapes , so a kink to one side might take the koi a litttle bit of time adapting too but they should live "the important part"..

Dave

 

[Dave 54]

I have the same concern. Exercise.

How does one determine that a fish is getting sufficient exercise?
I frequently find fish in both my outdoor pond and indoor aquariums, swimming in areas where there is strong current.

How does a koi keeper provide adequate facility for koi to exercise?
(or any large fish for that matter)

.

Remember mitch these guys had been indoors for 22" with no kniking so why on earth would two of two totally differing sizes of koi suddenly decide hey you know this week we are going to be seen to be kinking .
That kinking would have been picked up by us in our visual checks on them going into and coming out from winter and also the daily visual checks.
Why wold we miss it and Lee pick up on it , which points to it happening suddenly ?

Dave

 

[MitchM]

I'm just wondering how one determines that a koi is getting sufficient exercise.
Plus we all get a little kinked the older we get, right?

Your pond is rubber, is it not? That should break any electrical path to the ground.

I hope this is something your fish recover from.

 

[Dave 54]

I'm just wondering how one determines that a koi is getting sufficient exercise.
Plus we all get a little kinked the older we get, right?

Your pond is rubber, is it not? That should break any electrical path to the ground.

I hope this is something your fish recover from.

No our pond isnt rubber Mitch its made from thick welded plastic my friend, then connected to which is a bottom drain that has 12-14 has stainless steel screws connecting it to the pond proper.
Directly bellow that a bed of sand sat atop a bed of gravel then soil.
So as such it would have a direct pathway should it wish to strike the pond and was something we didnt factor in .
As such a million to one shot of a lightening strike is more than possible on these two fish had they been unlucky enough to had been in the direct path of the lightening strike namely the nearest fish to stainless steel at that time ,who knows I can't really say what went on but it is certaimly plausible that thats the way things occured.

Dave

 

[MitchM]

That's too bad, Dave. I can't imagine the stress that the fish would have to experience that would cause a spasm thaat would alter their skeletal structure.
I was trying to think that perhaps air pollution somehow would allow some organophosphate to enter your pond, expecially with all the rain you have been receiving. Hach makes a kit that detects organophoshphate, but it does sound like lightning is so far the most likely cause.
Perhaps as a preventative measure you could install a grounding probe that serves as a ground between your pond and the earth to minimize future electrical events like this.

 

[bettasngoldfish]

@MitchM I was shopping online recently and saw the grounding probes made for fish tanks. Do they sell them for ponds or would the aquarium probes be okay to use?

 

[MitchM]

I'm not sure Maria.
I've used those titanium grounding probes in the past, but they are fairly light duty.
Stray electrical current can certainly cause ill health effects, so I don't know why a similar product wouldn't be available for ponds.
The probes really just give stray electrical current an easier path to ground.

 

[Lisak1]

I built my pond without shelves, as I was told it reduces their swimming space and they like / need to swim up and down as well as around the pond.

Ok, but if you're going to have any plants in your pond (other than lilies) you'll need to create something to put your plants at the correct level. Adding crates or building structures in the pond to hold marginal plants will also take away swimming space, so I'm not sure how that's different from adding shelves in construction and planning for plant placement as you build.

Our fish swim in and among our shelves all the time. They love to poke around in the gravel and see what's what. Even the big koi nose their way through the plants on the shelves just checking stuff out. It's also where the frogs hang out and watch the world go by.

Not being critical here @Tula - I think everyone should build their pond the way it suits them. I would just take a different approach - if I were worried that my pond wouldn't give enough surface space for my big fish to swim, I would go wider before I chose to eliminate shelves from my design. If I were cramped for space, I would stick with smaller fish. If I were building a pond strictly for fish and no plants, then I wouldn't worry about shelves at all.

But having shelves in my pond has allowed me to naturalize many of my edges so I don't have to fool with pots every year, which means less work for me. Plus, in our shelf design we included several area that make for easy access so we can safely get into and out of the pond when we need to - and in the event someone or something falls in accidentally, the shelves also give them an easy way to climb back out. Again - no criticism... Just a different point of view!