Curvature of koi's spine, "at a loss to explain it".........


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I'm just wondering how one determines that a koi is getting sufficient exercise.
Plus we all get a little kinked the older we get, right? :)

Your pond is rubber, is it not? That should break any electrical path to the ground.

I hope this is something your fish recover from.
No our pond isnt rubber Mitch its made from thick welded plastic my friend, then connected to which is a bottom drain that has 12-14 has stainless steel screws connecting it to the pond proper.
Directly bellow that a bed of sand sat atop a bed of gravel then soil.
So as such it would have a direct pathway should it wish to strike the pond and was something we didnt factor in .
As such a million to one shot of a lightening strike is more than possible on these two fish had they been unlucky enough to had been in the direct path of the lightening strike namely the nearest fish to stainless steel at that time ,who knows I can't really say what went on but it is certaimly plausible that thats the way things occured.:(

Dave
 
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That's too bad, Dave. I can't imagine the stress that the fish would have to experience that would cause a spasm thaat would alter their skeletal structure.
I was trying to think that perhaps air pollution somehow would allow some organophosphate to enter your pond, expecially with all the rain you have been receiving. Hach makes a kit that detects organophoshphate, but it does sound like lightning is so far the most likely cause.
Perhaps as a preventative measure you could install a grounding probe that serves as a ground between your pond and the earth to minimize future electrical events like this.
 
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I'm not sure Maria.
I've used those titanium grounding probes in the past, but they are fairly light duty.
Stray electrical current can certainly cause ill health effects, so I don't know why a similar product wouldn't be available for ponds.
The probes really just give stray electrical current an easier path to ground.
 
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I built my pond without shelves, as I was told it reduces their swimming space and they like / need to swim up and down as well as around the pond.
Ok, but if you're going to have any plants in your pond (other than lilies) you'll need to create something to put your plants at the correct level. Adding crates or building structures in the pond to hold marginal plants will also take away swimming space, so I'm not sure how that's different from adding shelves in construction and planning for plant placement as you build.

Our fish swim in and among our shelves all the time. They love to poke around in the gravel and see what's what. Even the big koi nose their way through the plants on the shelves just checking stuff out. It's also where the frogs hang out and watch the world go by.

Not being critical here @Tula - I think everyone should build their pond the way it suits them. I would just take a different approach - if I were worried that my pond wouldn't give enough surface space for my big fish to swim, I would go wider before I chose to eliminate shelves from my design. If I were cramped for space, I would stick with smaller fish. If I were building a pond strictly for fish and no plants, then I wouldn't worry about shelves at all.

But having shelves in my pond has allowed me to naturalize many of my edges so I don't have to fool with pots every year, which means less work for me. Plus, in our shelf design we included several area that make for easy access so we can safely get into and out of the pond when we need to - and in the event someone or something falls in accidentally, the shelves also give them an easy way to climb back out. Again - no criticism... Just a different point of view!
 

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I'm not sure Maria.
I've used those titanium grounding probes in the past, but they are fairly light duty.
Stray electrical current can certainly cause ill health effects, so I don't know why a similar product wouldn't be available for ponds.
The probes really just give stray electrical current an easier path to ground.
Lightning can find its way into even a rubber lined pond via the plumbing and considering the fact that the damage that is inflicted upon the fish is usually caused by lightning that is already running through the soil after the initial strike, grounding probes will serve no useful purpose.
 
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Ok, but if you're going to have any plants in your pond (other than lilies) you'll need to create something to put your plants at the correct level. Adding crates or building structures in the pond to hold marginal plants will also take away swimming space, so I'm not sure how that's different from adding shelves in construction and planning for plant placement as you build.

Our fish swim in and among our shelves all the time. They love to poke around in the gravel and see what's what. Even the big koi nose their way through the plants on the shelves just checking stuff out. It's also where the frogs hang out and watch the world go by.

Not being critical here @Tula - I think everyone should build their pond the way it suits them. I would just take a different approach - if I were worried that my pond wouldn't give enough surface space for my big fish to swim, I would go wider before I chose to eliminate shelves from my design. If I were cramped for space, I would stick with smaller fish. If I were building a pond strictly for fish and no plants, then I wouldn't worry about shelves at all.

But having shelves in my pond has allowed me to naturalize many of my edges so I don't have to fool with pots every year, which means less work for me. Plus, in our shelf design we included several area that make for easy access so we can safely get into and out of the pond when we need to - and in the event someone or something falls in accidentally, the shelves also give them an easy way to climb back out. Again - no criticism... Just a different point of view!
I totally agree there Lisa , I think the route @Tula has taken is the route that many koi keepers take.
They tend to go for a no thrills straight up and down side to the pond or formal pond as we call them in the koi world as opposed to the shelved and planted ponds..
They almost always have either one or two bottom drains [dependant on size of pond].



Dave
 

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"Even through a rubber liner too Meyer" , we live and learn eh Mitch, as we didnt know that until now either.
Val and I where ready to go and buy one of these spikes until you said that they wouldnt work .
Hopefully however lightening wont strike twice in the same spot "or does it ", I mean weve all read about the Park Ranger struck multiple times havent we...
I think it was a million to one strike we were just plain unlucky to be in the way of the strike tracking through the ground .


Dave
You mis-quoted me again. Lightning discharges can reach the water column THROUGH the plumbing which, in most ponds, some portion of which is outside of the pond proper (skimmers, external filters, waterfalls etc.)
 
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Lightning can find its way into even a rubber lined pond via the plumbing and considering the fact that the damage that is inflicted upon the fish is usually caused by lightning that is already running through the soil after the initial strike, grounding probes will serve no useful purpose.
"Even through a rubber liner too Meyer" , we live and learn eh Mitch, as we didnt know that until now either.
Val and I where ready to go and buy one of these spikes until you said that they wouldnt work .
Hopefully however lightening wont strike twice in the same spot "or does it ", I mean weve all read about the Park Ranger struck multiple times havent we...
I think it was a million to one strike we were just plain unlucky to be in the way of the strike tracking through the ground .
@MitchM I was shopping online recently and saw the grounding probes made for fish tanks. Do they sell them for ponds or would the aquarium probes be okay to use?
A good idea though Maria.......:)

Dave
 
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You mis-quoted me again. Lightning discharges can reach the water column THROUGH the plumbing which, in most ponds, some portion of which is outside of the pond proper (skimmers, external filters, waterfalls etc.)
Our's are two seperate things conected via a 4" bottom drain bellow ground and a 2" return drain above ground, everything else is housed seperately the skimmer also doubles as our overflow pipe and each filter was sitting on a pathing slab cemented above ground .I didnt mean to misquote you at all Meyer please accept my appologies.
So the route was most probably the bottom drain yes ?



Dave
 
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Lightning can find its way into even a rubber lined pond via the plumbing and considering the fact that the damage that is inflicted upon the fish is usually caused by lightning that is already running through the soil after the initial strike, grounding probes will serve no useful purpose.
I see.
Thanks.
 
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Can I just make the observation that curved or bent spines also seem to happen in many aquarium fish, for which it would seem that lightning would be an unlikely cause. I don't pretend to know much about it, but fish tuberculosis might seem to be a factor, some sort of Mycobacterium marinum infection.
 
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Can I just make the observation that curved or bent spines also seem to happen in many aquarium fish, for which it would seem that lightning would be an unlikely cause. I don't pretend to know much about it, but fish tuberculosis might seem to be a factor, some sort of Mycobacterium marinum infection.

Johan the love and attention, we give to our koi is second to non and the kinks we are seeing in these two koi we can definately say where not there prior to the thunderstorm and no other long term koi that lived indoors for 22 years with us show any signs of kinking
There is no way this is fish TB they tend to disoplay emaciation through rapid weight loss and apparent wasting.
There is no drastic loss of appetite one would see with a Mycobacterial infection like TB on the comtrary they have a fantastic appetite there is no hanging in the water nor clamped fins or erratic swimming behavour you would see with TB..
Being a zoonosis I would perhaps caught fish TB long before now and from which I've read it can cause you painful sores infact I recall a story about a 13 year old girl from a story in PFK who had to have her arm amputated because of fish TB:-

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=4018

However I am pleased to able to report today that the bruising on the Aka Kigoi seems to be disapating which is a really good sign..
The large 28 year old Doitsu is active though is still having difficulty with his left turns , he can however do it , though I doubt because of his age the slight kink will ever disapear.
Weve gone through every possibility they all cancel out which leaves a lightening strike as the culprit unlucky as that is !!!...

Dave
 
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@Lisak1 , Sometimes I wish I'd put in shelves, but went off what I was told 10+ years ago. I do have water lilies and a lot of parrot's feather in floating baskets :)

The older I get, I think about what I would have done differently, but at this point will work with what I have.
 
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@Lisak1 , Sometimes I wish I'd put in shelves, but went off what I was told 10+ years ago. I do have water lilies and a lot of parrot's feather in floating baskets :)

The older I get, I think about what I would have done differently, but at this point will work with what I have.
Same here Tula we'll work with what we have besides its enough for us .to take us into our twilight years basically its what your happy with at the end of the day .
Many UK koi keepers have straiight up and down sides on their ponds but not many have planted floating baskets ;)

Dave
 
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Agreed! I was looking through photos of our pond build the other day and realized just how much work it was! And it's never really done, is it?
Never a true word was spoken Lisa but weve found if you break it down each time , then little by little things do get done.
Mind the Spanish have the right idea put off today what you can do tomorrow .
A quick update on the two koi both are doing well looking this morning at them the Aka kigoi 's bruising continues to disapate whilst the larger of the two's damage may take alot longer in that he also needs to replace the middle scale the one that the electrical charge from the strike hit .:)
Worrisome is the fact we have some very hot weather 30c + on its way from Spain through France then on to us , that when it clashes with the cold front bringing it up may spawn heavy thunderstorms in the South and Midlands of the UK :(


Dave
 
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We're having a big thunderstorm now, complete with hail!
We will be keeping our fingers crossed that your pond doesnt get struck b lightening .
We think weve found a third victim in the pond a kinginrin kuhaku who has a similar but smaller impact mark on its head most probably it was near to those koi the discharge went through at that time.

Dave
 
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Pond seems to have come through the storm fine, but not so the neighbor's huge tree, which crashed onto their deck:( I'm sorry you've found another victim .
 

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