Danner/Pondmaster 24 troubles

[gardengimp]

Hi everybody! Seeking advice from all you experienced knowledgeable types out there.

The latest release of the Too Much Nature played out in the wee hours of dawn today. Fortunately, I found the results before the fishies ran completely out of water. I'm blaming the raccoon, guess since he found fishies in a tub, he thought this time to check out my urn filter. And knocked loose the clamp holding the output hose from the 300 GPH pump sitting on the bottom of the pond.

Big huge LE SIGH.

My primary pump is a Danner/Pondmaster 24. Running submerged. Connected on the input side to a Matala EZ-BIO intake filter. For the lack of a properly sized hose (** see spousal unit notes below), the pump was not properly protected. It had stopped. It did not come on once sufficient water was in the pond.

I disconnected the pump, took it outside the pond and took it apart. I've never taken the impeller assembly out before, I don't really know what looks right and what looks wrong. I don't see anything visibly broken, or jamming the impeller. I put everything back together and stuck the pump into a tray of water and connected it to temporary power. It spit a ton of water on me. I quickly unplugged it. Put it back in the pond, connected the ins and outs, plugged it into the proper pond outlet.

Nothing. Well, I should say I 'feel' a slight motor humming. Some a bit more than nothing, but no water moving.

Had said tight-wad spousal unit come help me. We took the pump apart and back together several times. Half dozen or so? One time, we had the impeller spin briefly.

So, do I need a new impeller assembly or a new pump? How to tell?

Should I be able to turn the impeller by hand? Right now, when I take the pump apart, I have three pieces. The magnetic (long part - shaft I suppose), the plastic impeller blades part, and a piece of ceramic about an inch, hex outside round inside. Are these three pieces suppose to be permanently joined? Should I be able to test the pump in a bucket of water without the cover to the pump in place?

Fortunately, Aquatic Eco is about 40 minutes from me, and they should have both impeller assemblies and pondmaster pumps in stock. I don't want to go buy an impeller to get all the way home and find out I needed a pump. Though, I have been thinking about getting a spare pump, it would serve the Tight-wadded Spousal Unit (**) right if I came home with both. (Joking - just a little bit)

TIA,

~dianne


** It usually doesn't pay to cut corners - aka Tight-wadded spousal unit. Several months ago I realized my bright idea for an in pond pump vault/filter box had some nasty side effects. Part of remedying the mess involved switching from a filter box to an intake filter. So, my 1 foot intake hose was too short by a few feet. Spousal unit says I can just figure out a way to make do. Hrrrmmmph. Let this be the story of the saving $10 in the short run to shell out a few hundred in the long run.

 

[addy1]

my spousal unit has learned, it does not do to save pennies sometimes. I know nothing about your set up so can't help you.
I have had pumps with impellers like that, they are not all one unit, small fish tank type. And you should be able to test in a bucket of water.

 

[gardengimp]

I took myself off to Aquatic Eco today. That place is really cool, I'm so glad Sharon turned me onto it, and I can't believe I didn't know it was right here local. The catalog is worth getting!

Anywhooo - I took in my 5 gallon bucket, pump, screw driver and vise-grip wrench. Jerry helped me out. We chatted, he took the pump apart, didn't see anything wayward other than some small chips on the inside terminal end of the shaft. Put it back together and it started right up. Over the course of the next 40 minutes or so, in between other customers and him educating me on how to set up a non-priming external pump on flat-flat sand, the pump ran. Stopped and started several times. Bought a backup impeller and came home.

Pump won't start at my house. Nothing I did over the next several hours got that dang pump to start. Switched out the impeller. Noticed that the original shaft had some severe horizontal striations 3/4 of the way around the shaft. Vaguely remember reading something about that being bad. By this time, it was too late to make it back to Aquatic Eco to get a replacement pump.

I've got my old small pumps (that I used pre-pond expansion), and I've got an airstone hooked up. But, I'm still worried about oxygen levels. It has been mostly overcast, and hot, not a good time to be without a properly sized pump. I almost brought home a real outdoors deep water air pump today, but thought I should do my homework first. I'll take off work early tomorrow and go get a new pump. I should be able to get it hooked up and the pond properly running before dusk tomorrow. One more day fishies!

Oh, and after dinner tonight, the spousal unit went out the front door and was out for quite a spell. He came back in and informed me he was worried about our fish. He says, 'they didn't come running when I walked over to the feeding station and the big fish are acting lazy'. I think it is just that they were on the other side of the pond pigging out with fresh frog eggs. So I hope.

I overflowed the pond a bit this afternoon, my thinking was that an overflow would help to get the surface stuff from the frog/toad orgy last night over the side. Rain, dontcha know. Then I poured a box of baking soda in the rain water trough and dropped a drip line on top the charcoal and bio filter pot. Figure it can't hurt to get a bit of flow through going, as well as to try and keep the bio filter alive. I seriously considered hooking up a mister, but I'm more worried about something going haywire and getting too much chlorine in the pond. I think I should get a hose-end charcoal filter system rigged up for future OMG situations. It can go in the drawer with the spare pumps and the spare impeller. And my sanity. It must be hiding out in a drawer also because it's certainly not helping me out much right now :banghead3:

 

[HTH]

Try the pump on a different outlet ?

There is not much to go wrong in the sealed pump unit. It just provides a rotating magnetic field that drives the impeller. Thinking either it works or it does not.

I had one of the pondmasters (1800 or 2000) gpm wear through inside the impeller area and trip the GFI. Fixed it with the careful application of apoxy. That was after it had worn out at least one impeller. Take care with the pondmasters, the impeller covers are weak and you can easily break them if you lift the pump out by the input. Mine needs a new a new cover and maybe an impeller. Not worth fixing.

Seriously I stay away from mag drive pumps over 1000GPH or so. Impellers die after a few years and they get expensive on big pumps.

 

[gardengimp]

Yeah, I've tried many different outlets. Crossed one set of appendages, then another. Stood on my head and did a rain dance .... joking!

Thanks for the info on big mag drive pumps. More fuel for switching to external pump. Although ,,,,, I was reading in the Aquatic Eco catalog about how you should consider that sometimes two pumps are better than one big pump. For example, instead of one 2400 gph run two 1200 gph.

For posterity sake, here is the reference I found to scored shaft being a bad thing.

The good news is that Mag Drive pumps are generally maintenance free (if there is such a thing). They tend not to overheat as long as they are submerged, and can run for years if they are kept clean. The most common problem is that debris can bypass the prefilter and cause the impeller to slow down or even stop. This is easily remedied by unplugging the pump and removing the volute and cleaning the impeller. Be careful when removing it as the ceramic shaft can be easily broken. If the shaft that the impeller resides in is not scored or damaged a replacement impeller will generally return the pump back to operating condition.
It is also a good idea to place your submerged pump on a stepping stone raising it a couple of inches from the bottom of the pond where the dirt and debris accumulates. Otherwise your pump will be pumping abrasive grit from the bottom of the pond which can wear the shaft that the impeller rides in. Once worn, the shaft will wobble causing the pump to fail. This condition is not repairable and you will need to replace your pump.

source

 

[HTH]

They mean shaft like a mine shaft. That is what I was talking about when I said

I had one of the pondmasters (1800 or 2000) gpm wear through inside the impeller area and trip the GFI. Fixed it with the careful application of apoxy.

Two pumps are better then one but you have plumb them so that when one stops the water does not flow back into the non running one.

A few options on doing that. Two that I can think of now: One is to use a check valve on the output of each pump. The other is to simply have each pump do a different task and not share plumbing.

 

[gardengimp]

Well, I'm the poor but proud new owner of a properly circulating pump. Our fishies sang with joy.

Hmm, okay so the shaft being the round hole in the pump body that the magnetic core goes into? Is core a proper term? Anyway, that is what was scored, or striated horizontally around 75% of the diameter. Aquatic Eco said they've seen that many times but pumps continued to run. I'll be sending the not very functional pump back for warranty claim, will be interesting to see what they say/do.

I gave it a few hours thought and research last night, contemplating changing over my pump strategy. Frankly, running the pond, fountain and filtration on one single large pump was not a good idea. In fact, right now, after 3 days of inadequate circulation, I would say it was a pretty piss poor idea. But hey, I don't want to beat myself up too badly.

If I could go back in time and advise my just building a pond beginner self - my advice would be to use two submersible pumps, each pump having a designated function and not sharing plumbing. If one pump goes out, your pond is not left completely without circulation, so you've got a bit more leeway. Separate plumbing and separate tasks are easier for a new pond builder to build, manage and expand. Cuz, after all - we all like to expand and improve our ponds!

Speaking of expand, I'll go back to noodling around with the winter pond expansion plans. With a bit more knowledge and practical experience to weigh in on the how to and why to with what pump to.

But first, I have to rebuild the path side of the pond. Because I was so smart to tuck the power cord for the pump (all 18 feet of it) under the rocks along the side of the pond. The same rocks that I then foamed in the void spaces. And encouraged moss and ferns to grow upon. Yeah, that pond side. Which currently looks like crap, and did I mention it is pouring buckets outside? Tropical Storm season, it is here. Think the rain volume is much worse down where Addy is though.

 

[addy1]

It poured while we were down there, south florida.........one storm 6 inches in 30 minutes. Up here, i.e. home, dry, might get some rain tomorrow.