To soften water I suggest the API water softener pillow. It's a pouch you add to the filter. Regarding KH, GH and alkalosis, my info came from the Manual of Fish Health, the book Dave recommended. It is an excellent source.
Dead fish in goldfish pond
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Thank you I hope it helps you understand our hobby even more and that you yourself will recomend to others that it's a must that folks must learn about it to fully understand it.Litzi1964 said:
We here are in a soft water area of the UK and as such dont have to soften our water.
Remember there are many more books you can buy just take a look through our rrecomended reading list the more you can learn via other books
rgrds
Dave
I think having a recommended reading list is a great idea.
At the risk of sounding like a psychotherapist (sorry-occupational hazard), I don't think anyone who isn't a fish hobbyist would understand how stressful it is to have sick fish or fish deaths. A situation where you can see something is clearly wrong, but you don't know what it is or what you can do to correct it is very stressful. This can stir up feelings of powerlessness, helplessness and inadequacy. And when others around you say "what are you so upset about, they're just fish", you can add feeling isolated, trivialized and misunderstood to the mix.
With children, you can at least ask friends, relatives or the family doctor. With cats and dogs, you can ask the local veterinarian. But I think fish hobbyists have to do more digging to find info and resources.
At the risk of sounding like a psychotherapist (sorry-occupational hazard), I don't think anyone who isn't a fish hobbyist would understand how stressful it is to have sick fish or fish deaths. A situation where you can see something is clearly wrong, but you don't know what it is or what you can do to correct it is very stressful. This can stir up feelings of powerlessness, helplessness and inadequacy. And when others around you say "what are you so upset about, they're just fish", you can add feeling isolated, trivialized and misunderstood to the mix.
With children, you can at least ask friends, relatives or the family doctor. With cats and dogs, you can ask the local veterinarian. But I think fish hobbyists have to do more digging to find info and resources.
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Thanks, Litzi, you're dead on with the conclusion you have come to! I do feel soooo helpless and sad over this ordeal.
Here is today's update. Still have 6 fish in the Q-tank. Could not find the other half of the "General Cure" by API, so had to buy another box. You treat 1 packet per 10 gallons, so used 5 for first treatment Sunday, then should have treated yesterday ... but couldn't find the rest of the packets ... so treated it second time today. Then wait 48 hours, and do a 25% water change. Active ingredients: 250 mg Metronidazole and 75 mg Praziquantel per packet. Says it is for Gill and Skin Flukes, Swollen Abdomen, Wasting Disease, and Hole-In-The-Head.
So, my plan is to buy at least the highest recommended book, Dave, but in the meantime, until I find the time to locate it and purchase it, I will use the internet to search for clues, once I get somewhat caught up around here. Being gone or busy the last 2.5 weeks has not helped this issue at all. Will buy a microscope, but wondering what magnification I should get.
Tonight I learned that a day or two before I returned from trip to UT and found 5 dead fish, ALL of the fields surrounding my 6 acres was sprayed by airplane with a fungicide. I've been told by local farmer's wife that it would be totally safe for fish, and I would expect it to be, but wondering now if it could have contributed to my troubles. I guess I'm really hooping to find some "reason" for the sickness.
The other thing I thought of, and this may be more likely to be the problem, is that I have turtles that "show up" in my ponds from my farm pond. There is a small one in the ponds right now, was in the koi pond on the weekend, this morning in the goldfish pond, and earlier this summer there was a 7" painted turtles that visited for about a week, back and forth between the ponds. So, now I'm concerned if the turtles are bringing in disease from the farm pond, I see no way to keep them or the bullfrogs out of my ponds, unless I put up a gawdy fence, and completely cover the ponds (frogs would jump over any fence, and not sure the turtles would not scale a fence, too).
So, once again, I am frustrated to not know what is going on, how it happened, trying to think of anything and everything that could have caused it, and 6 fish that are looking pretty sickly, just pretty much "hanging out" in the 55 gal Q-tank. Yes, it's sad, it's frustrating, it's maddening, you name it, those feelings have been around for the last week and a half, and no end in sight ... at least not yet. Still working on it, and will continue to do so until I figure out what caused this, or at least what to do to cure it.
Oh, thought I would let you know no other fish have died since the weekend that I have found or see, so hoping whatever it was is dissipating, if that's possible.
Here is today's update. Still have 6 fish in the Q-tank. Could not find the other half of the "General Cure" by API, so had to buy another box. You treat 1 packet per 10 gallons, so used 5 for first treatment Sunday, then should have treated yesterday ... but couldn't find the rest of the packets ... so treated it second time today. Then wait 48 hours, and do a 25% water change. Active ingredients: 250 mg Metronidazole and 75 mg Praziquantel per packet. Says it is for Gill and Skin Flukes, Swollen Abdomen, Wasting Disease, and Hole-In-The-Head.
So, my plan is to buy at least the highest recommended book, Dave, but in the meantime, until I find the time to locate it and purchase it, I will use the internet to search for clues, once I get somewhat caught up around here. Being gone or busy the last 2.5 weeks has not helped this issue at all. Will buy a microscope, but wondering what magnification I should get.
Tonight I learned that a day or two before I returned from trip to UT and found 5 dead fish, ALL of the fields surrounding my 6 acres was sprayed by airplane with a fungicide. I've been told by local farmer's wife that it would be totally safe for fish, and I would expect it to be, but wondering now if it could have contributed to my troubles. I guess I'm really hooping to find some "reason" for the sickness.
The other thing I thought of, and this may be more likely to be the problem, is that I have turtles that "show up" in my ponds from my farm pond. There is a small one in the ponds right now, was in the koi pond on the weekend, this morning in the goldfish pond, and earlier this summer there was a 7" painted turtles that visited for about a week, back and forth between the ponds. So, now I'm concerned if the turtles are bringing in disease from the farm pond, I see no way to keep them or the bullfrogs out of my ponds, unless I put up a gawdy fence, and completely cover the ponds (frogs would jump over any fence, and not sure the turtles would not scale a fence, too).
So, once again, I am frustrated to not know what is going on, how it happened, trying to think of anything and everything that could have caused it, and 6 fish that are looking pretty sickly, just pretty much "hanging out" in the 55 gal Q-tank. Yes, it's sad, it's frustrating, it's maddening, you name it, those feelings have been around for the last week and a half, and no end in sight ... at least not yet. Still working on it, and will continue to do so until I figure out what caused this, or at least what to do to cure it.
Oh, thought I would let you know no other fish have died since the weekend that I have found or see, so hoping whatever it was is dissipating, if that's possible.
j.w
I Love my Goldies
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Gosh I hope you are right CE about it going away and losing strength whatever it was or is. Feeling so bad for you losing your fish. I know how much you love them and enjoy watching and caring for them. Lets hope you have fixed whatever was wrong and you are now on an uphill ride. I would be devastated not knowing also.
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We are all pulling for you CE.
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Well, crap! Another dead fish this morning, and one not looking very good, hanging on the bottom. Darn darn darn!!!! I was hoping that maybe the illness was waning, but I guess I'm not going to get that lucky! STILL don't know what the issue is, but going to buy a microscope today, get whatever magnification Wal-Mart has, since that's the only place within 60 miles that would have a microscope. Tonight I will read up on illnesses, thanks to Dave54 that is going to send me an e-book! Thanks so much, Dave!!! I really appreciate it. And, maybe I'll get some answers if I can catch the sickly fish and scrape him/her. We shall see ....
j.w
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So w/ the book and the microscope hopefully you will be able to figure out what is wrong. If not I wonder if there is a way to post what you see under the microscope in a photo for someone w/ experience in fish diseases to take a look at here?
I sure hope you find some answers soon Patti. Hope the microscope will help tell you something. I sure feel for you and your fight to get to the bottom of this.
They also do arial spraying around us and I have concerns whether that will harm my fish and pond. Hope not.
As a newbie I can only follow your post and hope to learn something should I find myself in the same situation sometime.
They also do arial spraying around us and I have concerns whether that will harm my fish and pond. Hope not.
As a newbie I can only follow your post and hope to learn something should I find myself in the same situation sometime.
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OK, I think I got a web page from you Dave, just want to confirm that is what you sent, as my "CountryEscape" is in the middle of the web address, so it looks weird.
Then, tonight I saw another neighbor, one of the farmers who farms a 40 acre plot 1/4 mile from my house. His field was also sprayed with the fungicide, which he assured me was not dangerous to my pond. Then he told me to call a friend who raises prawn in farm ponds, and so I did. Spoke with Bill, and told him as much as I know, and in the end he asked if I had put any of the sick fish in just fresh water, and I had not. So, he asked me a few questions about the fish in the Q-tank: Are they eating? No, not really (although 30 minutes later when I walked by the tank, 3 of them came to the top begging ... go figure). Are the at the top or bottom? Bottom. Are they gasping for air? No, although one swam to the top for a few seconds, then went to the bottom and was opening and closing it's mouth wide. Are they flashing? Nope (not in the Q-tank or the pond that I've seen at all). So, he suggested that I take out several from the Q-tank, put them in a bucket of fresh well water with an aerator, and wait 12 hours, see if their mannerisms changed, then check at 24 hours. As he said, IF it is the fungicide, or anything else that got into that pond, fresh water for the fish may bring them out of their issues. Why didn't I think of that???
I did a full 25% water change tonight, drained it down, then added the fresh water. Will do this again every 3 days, unless someone tells me different. If the issue is the water, something that is not registering on any tests, then water changes will correct it. I did do a 20-25" water change 10 days ago, too. I shut off the air bubbler for tonight, will turn it on in the a.m. It's been getting down to 55 degrees at night, and with the fresh water that will have cooled off the pond, too, so will let it run tonight without the air bubbler.
Oh, and there is not a place in our area that sells microscopes, so guess I'll have to order one of those, too! Geesh ... this can't be easy, I guess. :-(
Then, tonight I saw another neighbor, one of the farmers who farms a 40 acre plot 1/4 mile from my house. His field was also sprayed with the fungicide, which he assured me was not dangerous to my pond. Then he told me to call a friend who raises prawn in farm ponds, and so I did. Spoke with Bill, and told him as much as I know, and in the end he asked if I had put any of the sick fish in just fresh water, and I had not. So, he asked me a few questions about the fish in the Q-tank: Are they eating? No, not really (although 30 minutes later when I walked by the tank, 3 of them came to the top begging ... go figure). Are the at the top or bottom? Bottom. Are they gasping for air? No, although one swam to the top for a few seconds, then went to the bottom and was opening and closing it's mouth wide. Are they flashing? Nope (not in the Q-tank or the pond that I've seen at all). So, he suggested that I take out several from the Q-tank, put them in a bucket of fresh well water with an aerator, and wait 12 hours, see if their mannerisms changed, then check at 24 hours. As he said, IF it is the fungicide, or anything else that got into that pond, fresh water for the fish may bring them out of their issues. Why didn't I think of that???
I did a full 25% water change tonight, drained it down, then added the fresh water. Will do this again every 3 days, unless someone tells me different. If the issue is the water, something that is not registering on any tests, then water changes will correct it. I did do a 20-25" water change 10 days ago, too. I shut off the air bubbler for tonight, will turn it on in the a.m. It's been getting down to 55 degrees at night, and with the fresh water that will have cooled off the pond, too, so will let it run tonight without the air bubbler.
Oh, and there is not a place in our area that sells microscopes, so guess I'll have to order one of those, too! Geesh ... this can't be easy, I guess. :-(
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Haha, yes, I know it's expensive, I just didn't know it would be so frustrating. I am to blame, I was not totally prepared for something like this to happen. Being out in the middle of no where, I figured I wouldn't have those type of problems. Still don't know what it is, and not able to figure it out! Grrr ..... JW suggested that I do some type of an autopsy on the next dead fish ... if any more die ... and post pics, that someone on here might know what the problem is from the innards. Problem is I don't know what part of the fish I should focus on, or if anyone would be able to tell anyhow.
At this point, I'm crossing my fingers and toes ... and praying ... that I see some change in the fish in the fresh water by tomorrow evening. That will make me hopeful at least that the water got contaminated, and that can be cured or at least mostly fixed with water changes, which are free for me. :blueflower:
At this point, I'm crossing my fingers and toes ... and praying ... that I see some change in the fish in the fresh water by tomorrow evening. That will make me hopeful at least that the water got contaminated, and that can be cured or at least mostly fixed with water changes, which are free for me. :blueflower:
CE to cut a veiwing window in the side of a dead fish is fairly straight forwards , the trick is cutting a window without damaging any organs .
You start just under the dorsal fin and cut a lengthways opening that extends from just after the pectoral fin to the anal fin. .
Next cut down from this cut ending up in the front to just behind the pectoral fin then at the front of tje koi and do the same ending up just in frnt of the anal fin and peel the whole wedge downwards this then gives you your window into a koi/goldfishes inner workings
This then allows you to do your autopsy , once it is open the first organs you will see are the swimbladder with a kidney just in front of it
The swimbladder looks like dumbell and is just under the kidney there are two kidneys in a koi one above the swimbladder which is the posterior kidney just under the vertebral column, the other which is the anterior kidneywhich is in front of the airsac .
Bellow this are the gonads in a female you will find the egg sac in a male the testesbellow this is the gastro intestinal tractthe spleen is embedded into the tract and is a small dark red mass
In front of the spleen in the anteria part of the body you will see a brownish red mass this is the liver .
You will find the gall badderwhich is a small sac embedded in the liver.
The heart is a located just behind the head near the gills it is a two chambered organ, the gills speak for themselves and the brain can be found between but slightly behind the eyes ..
Without photos I hope this will help you map the bodies internal workings out ....
rgrds
Dave
You start just under the dorsal fin and cut a lengthways opening that extends from just after the pectoral fin to the anal fin. .
Next cut down from this cut ending up in the front to just behind the pectoral fin then at the front of tje koi and do the same ending up just in frnt of the anal fin and peel the whole wedge downwards this then gives you your window into a koi/goldfishes inner workings
This then allows you to do your autopsy , once it is open the first organs you will see are the swimbladder with a kidney just in front of it
The swimbladder looks like dumbell and is just under the kidney there are two kidneys in a koi one above the swimbladder which is the posterior kidney just under the vertebral column, the other which is the anterior kidneywhich is in front of the airsac .
Bellow this are the gonads in a female you will find the egg sac in a male the testesbellow this is the gastro intestinal tractthe spleen is embedded into the tract and is a small dark red mass
In front of the spleen in the anteria part of the body you will see a brownish red mass this is the liver .
You will find the gall badderwhich is a small sac embedded in the liver.
The heart is a located just behind the head near the gills it is a two chambered organ, the gills speak for themselves and the brain can be found between but slightly behind the eyes ..
Without photos I hope this will help you map the bodies internal workings out ....
rgrds
Dave
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Thursday evening I spoke with a local guy neighbor told me to call. He raises prawns (freshwater shrimp). I discussed the issue with the sprayer plane and fungicide, and he indicated it was a possibility the water got contaminated. So, I did a 25% water change to the goldfish pond. I had already done about a 20% change 10 days before that. I drained the water out before adding the new. He suggested doing that about once every 3 days.
Then he suggested that I take half of the 6 quarantined fish and put them in a bucket of fresh well water with an aerator, see if they perked up after 12-24 hours. If they did, I would know that the water itself was contaminated, or at least it would suggest that. So, did that. Here are the 3 "bucket fish".
That left these 3 in the Q-tank, and after telling Bill that none of them wanted to eat, these guys an hour later were at the top, happy to have a little bit of food. They each got about 3 pieces.
Last night was 2 days after the second addition of medicine to the Q-tank, and I was to do a 20% water change, which I did. The Q-tank fish were once again up at the top, wanting to eat, bucket fish, staying at the bottom. Q-tank water is pretty green, bucket water is still clear. So, not really any change for the better for the bucket fish, so back to the drawing board on that issue. Was hoping to see them swimming around (I know, it's a much smaller area ...) and possibly coming to the top for food, but they are doing neither. Don't seem worse, just not any better either.
This morning I took this pic of the Q-tank fish, seeming to be at the top "sucking air". One seems to have some white slime or bubbles on it's body, and it's the one sucking air. The bubbler just quit this morning, needs more batteries. Going to put inside aquarium bubbler in there for now. But, wondering if this fish also looks somewhat bloated. It has been fat since I took it out of the pond, don't think it has gotten fatter, but wondering your opinions. Thanks!
Then he suggested that I take half of the 6 quarantined fish and put them in a bucket of fresh well water with an aerator, see if they perked up after 12-24 hours. If they did, I would know that the water itself was contaminated, or at least it would suggest that. So, did that. Here are the 3 "bucket fish".
That left these 3 in the Q-tank, and after telling Bill that none of them wanted to eat, these guys an hour later were at the top, happy to have a little bit of food. They each got about 3 pieces.
Last night was 2 days after the second addition of medicine to the Q-tank, and I was to do a 20% water change, which I did. The Q-tank fish were once again up at the top, wanting to eat, bucket fish, staying at the bottom. Q-tank water is pretty green, bucket water is still clear. So, not really any change for the better for the bucket fish, so back to the drawing board on that issue. Was hoping to see them swimming around (I know, it's a much smaller area ...) and possibly coming to the top for food, but they are doing neither. Don't seem worse, just not any better either.
This morning I took this pic of the Q-tank fish, seeming to be at the top "sucking air". One seems to have some white slime or bubbles on it's body, and it's the one sucking air. The bubbler just quit this morning, needs more batteries. Going to put inside aquarium bubbler in there for now. But, wondering if this fish also looks somewhat bloated. It has been fat since I took it out of the pond, don't think it has gotten fatter, but wondering your opinions. Thanks!