Do fish Feel pain ?

[Dave 54]

Koi are called the warrior fish by the Japanese this is because when the magio were eaten in their version of America's thanks giving slices are taken from them to eat whilst the fish is still alive.
it is said they dont flinch or show any pain but is this true?
Can they indeed feel pain , well I've decided to look into this and have bought this book Do Fish Fell Pain by Victoria Braithwaite ISBN 9780199551200.
Its findings may well effect the welfare of our koi when it comes to treating them , Victoria whilst writng this book came under attack from the angling fraternity for spreading Myths and Lies.
Whilst others welcomed her reseach, anyway what are your thoughts on this subject, do we have to look into the way we treat them when easpecially when treating for parasites with the chemicals we use presently I mean what are their effects on them.
What about when we have to do surgery on them what then, just what are they really feeling , is this in fact a welcome question to be asking, should we infact ignore her findings , I think the answer should be no as we have a duty of care.
Which if ignored especially in the UK could land us in court charged by the RSPCA after the United Kingdom tightened up on the matter of animal welfare and introduced the New Animal Welfare Bill here in the UK which the BKKS fought long and hard to have koi and their welfare included in
Up until we bought the book I'd never thought about this issue before nor had Val, whats your own take on this subject is has Victoria in her research opened up a whole new can of worms so to speak?

Dave

 

[tbendl]

To be honest I have always assumed that fish, actually all creature for that matter, feel pain.

 

[Nepen]

Me too, T.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

All vertebrates experience pain. It is a defense mechanism. Present thinking also includes some of the other lower life forms with a developed nervous system.

 

[Dave 54]

All vertebrates experience pain. It is a defense mechanism. Present thinking also includes some of the other lower life forms with a developed nervous system.

Meyer may I draw your attention to a recent Austrialian study that backs up the Author of the book I'm reading there were some quite suprising obsevations made by the scientists under taking the study :-

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=6425

Personally weve both thought they were capable of feeling pain this has been a growing conviction over the last 27 years of koi keeping.
There have also been studies into memory our very own National Marine Aquarium here in Plymouth conducted tests on a blue wrasse to to see if it could remember the dinner bell and come to the side of the tank when it was pressed at a cost of £40,000 , This is something weve known for years our koi can even tell the difference between British Summer time and Greenwhich Mean time knowing just when they were to be fed this is when they used to be kept indoors prior to us getting the pond.
They would come to the side prior to the tank lights going on which is a difference of an hour summer and winter.

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=6507

Dave

 

[dieselplower]

I agree fish do feel pain.

Side question... If they don't, why bother putting them out of misery with clove oil rather than just freezing them or something otherwise thought to cause pain?

 

[Dave 54]

I agree fish do feel pain.

Side question... If they don't, why bother putting them out of misery with clove oil rather than just freezing them or something otherwise thought to cause pain?

The question there though dp is how do we know that anethatizing our fish doesnt in itself cause them to suffer pain think about it Oil of cloves or MS222 is something they dont normally have going over their gills, there are so many uanswered questons to be read through in this book .
Which is basically the reason we bought it in the first place .

Dave

 

[dieselplower]

I don't know that but the guys on Koiphen endorse it. At some point you just have to trust experts.

The question there though dp is how do we know that anethatizing our fish doesnt in itself cause them to suffer pain think about it Oil of cloves or MS222 is something they dont normally have going over their gills, there are so many uanswered questons to be read through in this book .
Which is basically the reason we bought it in the first place .

Dave

 

[Meyer Jordan]

Consider this: If fish can not feel pain or discomfort (same sensation, in my thinking), then why would they 'Flash' in a attempt to remove parasites? As for the experts, they are divided on this subject.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

I forgot to add that the overwhelming majority of scientific papers support the idea that fish do feel pain, especially teleost fish. Carp is a teleost fish.

 

[Dave 54]

I don't know that but the guys on Koiphen endorse it. At some point you just have to trust experts.

Thats the point mate the lady in quetion is an expert in her field its quite an nteresting read the lady who wrote the book is a leading researcher into fish and the question of pain , some of the latest findings on fish are quite astounding in that they also have are seen to havecognative abilities previously only seen in Champanzee lions, dolphin's and hawks, all of which are accorded substancial protectioni most countries.
I'm not knocking the peopl of koiphen but they have not done the research into this, she on the other hand has , so who is the expert ?

Dave.

 

[dieselplower]

Thats the point mate the lady in quetion is an expert in her field its quite an nteresting read the lady who wrote the book is a leading researcher into fish and the question of pain , some of the latest findings on fish are quite astounding in that they also have are seen to havecognative abilities previously only seen in Champanzee lions, dolphin's and hawks, all of which are accorded substancial protectioni most countries.
I'm not knocking the peopl of koiphen but they have not done the research into this, she on the other hand has .

Dave.

Some of the guys there are experts in fish health and some people who do reaserch are still wrong. It's hard to know who to believe.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

If findings are peer-reviewed within the scientific community, they can be considered valid. Any other findings (claims) are anecdotal and subject to question.

 

[Dave 54]

You see thats funny this is exactly what happened to her people say well what does she know about this shes just a researcher
The book dp the looks into every aspect of fish and man from the angling fraternity who insantly said she was spreading Lies and Myths, she covers trawling side of things my former job and the hobby side of things along with the fish keeping industry ,so you instantly claim ah but shes not an expert in fish health which is the same reaction as the anglers , this is about the welfare of fish what is fish health all about mate ?
Its about the welfare of fish i;e fish health and making sure they are pain free.
Meyer is an expert my mentor is an expert, there are a number of people on Koiphen who are expert in fish welfare
My mentor being the former head of the Health Standards committee BKKS and Plymouth club member during each of his visits I take alott away from it ,
However I dont claim to be an expert, I've only broached the question because I went and bought the book and thought it an interesting subject to bring up to have an in depth discussion about between members of the forum.

Dave

 

[Meyer Jordan]

You see thats funny this is exactly what happened to her people say well what does she know about this shes just a researcher.

Who are these people? Where are the results of their research? I just finished a quick research scan and could not find ONE paper or article written within the scientific community that states absolutely that fish cannot feel pain. The notion of the requirement of a neocortex before pain can be experienced carries no weight because it is comparing apples to oranges...humans to fish.....mammals to non-mammals. Entirely different physiology. For example, humans have 5 senses, fish have more than 5. Carp, and likely other fish, can see in the near infrared of the light spectrum, humans can't. Etc. Etc.