Does anybody else service ponds?

[capewind]

Of course you need to get reimbursed for parts, that is a given, and you SHOULD make something for your efforts. In the general construction trades here, companies charge $45-60 hr for PROFESSIONAL services (licensed and insured). We start UNSKILLED laborers at $10-15 per hour, depending on their skill level. If they cant pick things up quickly, we move on, if they do well, raises come quickly.

If you were ONLY going to clean the pond, I would say a flat rate would be fair. A pond as you described should only take half to three quarters of a day to drain, scrub and refill ... with a flat rate, if it takes you longer due to your lack of experience, you can eat your time financially, and call it a learning experience, and honestly, I think the experience is more important for you right now. A GOOD REFERENCE is worth more than a days pay.

The problem I am having with this project is you are venturing into redesigning their system, which DOES take more experience than I think you have. You are not YET qualified to make any guarantees, and feel that if the client is paying for new parts, they should get something designed to their needs.

Through the warmer months, we throw some of the local kids (18-22 yr old age group) some work so they have extra money when they are between jobs or just trying to make some extra money around their other jobs. Due to the fact that they are just unskliied labor, we only pay them $10 hr cash. Personally, I think you should be into this price range.

IF you can post lots of pictures, the group members can help you give the clients what they need.

 

[NOVA Merd]

Okay thank you very much you guys are very helpful. Maybe i should break it up into two days just to have some imput from you guys? I mean I don't want to rely completly on others but you guys are much more knowledgeable than I am at this point. I do beleive I can construct a homemade mechanical filter for them in general though...

 

[Waterbug]

I've been shopping around for them and i'm thinking a pump around 2,000 gallons at least should do it for them and to make a mechanical filter from materials at home depot...

Not answering the question. The question is WHY do you think a new pump and filters are needed.

I can go into any pond forum and read thousands of posts that say "you need a bigger pump", "you need more filters". That's free advice and worth every penny. It's very poor advice.

Pumps and filters are added for a reason. When charging people they're paying you for your labor and/or knowledge.

My dad sertaintly thinks it will take me way longer than I thought that's why i said four days max.

Your Dad has clean a lot of ponds? Everyone has an opinion on everything. The trick is separating the bad from the really bad.

At first I was thinking a FULL days work from morning till whenever I get done would be enough. Plus not know exactly everything about what's in this pond (build up of organic debree) I will just have to see when it's emptied.

Exactly. You will know when it's done. The more ponds you clean the better you will be able to bid.

The waste water will simply go into the yard

Wasn't the question. Question is does the owner know and agree where the waste is going? Get it in writing. Get everything in writing. It provides you with very little actual protection but can calm down a crazy customer. You can show a mistake was just a misunderstanding.

How much waste are we talking about? Trick question. The answer is you don't know. Will the pile of waste sink and have flies and bugs? Will it be so thick that it kills plants? What the customer will do is agreed to dumping in the yard for a cheap price. Then call you in a week and complain until you come out and remove it. People don't do this on purpose, with the intention of cheating you. It's just the way the world works. No one ever makes a mistake. They'll say "yeah, I agreed you could dump it in the yard, but I didn't know it would be that bad." And they'd be right. An experience knows how much and what kind of waste can go where. How reduce smell and risk. But having it in the contract "may cause smells and may kill plants" is a good idea. Customers almost never read contracts anyways. That way you can charge something for the additional clean up if needed.

So honestly there is still alot of things I don't know and I will figure out quickly how long it will take me once i'm in there.

Smart.

As far as a quote like I said i'm thinking 200 no more than 225 or so in parts plus however long it takes me. Now just out of curiousity from everything ya'll know about my experience as of right now, what do you think would be a good amount to charge for labor. I allready looked around and there isn't anybody in my area doing pond servicing...

A good amount to charge for anything is exactly whatever the market will bear. We operate in a capitalist economy, not purely, but close enough. The quicker you figure that out and understand what that means the better your chance. The concept of "fair" is something to reserve for cleaning your Grandmother's pond.

I learned this from a mason. We were driving to a job and I ask how much we were going to charge. I had done some work and I bid based on materials and labor. He needed help so I was going to be his helper but wanted to learn how we bid. He didn't mention materials or labor at all, but I assume he kind of already had that idea in his head. Instead he starts talking about the customer, where he lives, where he works, we had a lot of work at the time and all masons were busy...he goes on and on about all these things that didn't seem related to the job. And it wasn't related to the job. However it was directly related to how much he charged and how well we did.

Profit is always in fix bids. Labor plus is just working for someone.

When times are tough you have to have tight bids. The customer has to be willing to pay the price. There are factors. But prices can vary.

You'll be fine. Hit it hard. Work fast, work smart. A drain and clean is pretty easy but you will get much faster the more you do.

 

[Waterbug]

As far as the fish go... This will sound harsh, it's a harsh world. I knew pond cleaners who didn't save the fish at all. Maybe they'd put some into a bucket and if they lived they lived. Most went out with the muck.

Catching fish in a mucky pond is time consuming and therefore expensive.

20 feeder goldfish for $1 is way cheaper. They could charge less which is what their customers wanted, cheap. The owners hadn't seen their fish in months, have no idea how many fish or size. They could care less.

Koi are a different matter.

 

[capewind]

It's just interesting that I may start into a pond service because of the need in my area, better for me though . Plus it's fun.

BTW, just so that you are aware ... I just did a QUICK Google search on the words "Northern Virginia Pond Cleaning" and STOPPED COUNTING after SIXTEEN websites views of companies in your area, by the start of page TWO.

In fairness, I did a search on MY area, my exact search words were "Cape Cod Pond Cleaning" and found ONE on page two, which happens to be a nursery that opened up a few years ago, almost an hour away. Glad I just told my new internet advertising rep to start pushing ponds more.

Anyways ... my point in looking is besides the side jobs you can pick up, maybe you should check out some of these companies to see if they would hire you part time to help you learn ... obviously not telling them that you want to be their future competion

 

[Waterbug]

Businesses use numbers to try and stay in reality land. Here a few rough numbers.

Say an average of 50 miles round trip. That will vary by job and area, but for me 50 miles was about right in San Jose. That's an hour minimum and often 2 hrs. Current cost to run a vehicle is about 60-75 cents per mile. Let's say 50 cents. That's $25 per trip, not counting the 1-2 hrs of time.

Say a job takes 15 hrs. I break it into 3 days, 5 hrs per day. That's $75 out of my pocket, 3-6 hrs on the road. $150 bid - $75 = $75 / 15 hr = $5/hr. Deduct wear and tear on equipment (it doesn't last forever) and you're working for $4/hr easy. Deduct marketing time and costs and you should be able to clear about $20/week profit. If you live with your parents rent free and they buy you food and clothes...you're golden.

Me, if I thought this was a 15 hr job I'd be there at dawn ready to go, skip lunch, and work into the dark to get it done in one day. I go from making $4/hr to $7.30/hr - I almost doubled my salary. And in the next 2 days I can clean 2 more ponds. My total profit over 3 days would be $328.50 while yours would be $60. My fictional business would 5.5 times more profitable than your fictional business.

Numbers matter. It costs less to figure this stuff out ahead of time than just start working and hope for the best.

Maybe this job is around the corner...not the point. If this is going to be a business you're going to be cleaning about 15 ponds per week. To get that many clients you're going to be traveling a lot. So $150 might be fine for screwing around, but if this is to be a business you have to figure real costs.

That's why people who do this for a living charge so much. They like to eat.

 

[capewind]

Businesses use numbers to try and stay in reality land. Here a few rough numbers.

Not making a profit, and no one stays in business long.

Say an average of 50 miles round trip. That will vary by job and area, but for me 50 miles was about right in San Jose. That's an hour minimum and often 2 hrs. Current cost to run a vehicle is about 60-75 cents per mile. Let's say 50 cents. That's $25 per trip, not counting the 1-2 hrs of time.

This number is fine if you are ONLY talking fuel, but then there is still general maintence on said vehicle, repairs, tires, and INSURANCE. I'll agree to skip over all the work related tools and equipment, as you did touch on this.

Say a job takes 15 hrs. I break it into 3 days, 5 hrs per day. That's $75 out of my pocket, 3-6 hrs on the road. $150 bid - $75 = $75 / 15 hr = $5/hr. Deduct wear and tear on equipment (it doesn't last forever) and you're working for $4/hr easy. Deduct marketing time and costs and you should be able to clear about $20/week profit. If you live with your parents rent free and they buy you food and clothes...you're golden.

Marketing??? We are spending $800 per month in advertising ($500 alone to the phone book), and I know that is less than others in the area pay. $1600 a year for the commercial vehicle insurance (carry $1 million) and another $1400 a year for liability insurance (carry $2 million) ... Every business owner needs to be sure they are well insured. If you are sued, and dont have enough insurance, they can go after you personally ... that's your home and every other asset you dont have tied up in a secure way (living trusts have their benefits!!!).

Maybe this job is around the corner...not the point. If this is going to be a business you're going to be cleaning about 15 ponds per week. To get that many clients you're going to be traveling a lot. So $150 might be fine for screwing around, but if this is to be a business you have to figure real costs.

All true, but the experience is lacking to be a QUALIFIED professional. We see hacks everyday who THINK they are professionals. I "appreciate" the hackers, as they actually generate MORE work for us. It usually costs more to clean up someone else's screw up. (Not implying anything about this poster, just the general fact of what we see in the real world.)

That's why people who do this for a living charge so much. They like to eat.

Hell, based on your math in this example, I cant even pay for my insurances, forget about the advertising ... eat??? Food is over rated isnt it??? The problem with this post was back at offering a professional service, without the time gained experience. I'm just a dope that answers a phone and does all the paperwork ... When time allows, I'll go to jobsites to learn more, but really only do it when I can be an asset (help) and not in the way (need to keep the professional image).

 

[NOVA Merd]

I sertaintly didn't look hard enough. But the fact is this I know what I know and have a strong passion for it. What everyone said I will keep in mind but I will proceed with what I find reasonable. I allready had my teacher ask me about building a pond today...that's three possible costumers. Everyone starts out small and builds with experience. This is where I'm at. I will document and show everyone progress if this client takes me.

That's about it for now. If this client goes through than in two weeks on my weekend off i'll be working on her pond.

 

[capewind]

I really hope it works out for you. Passion is good, but baby steps. You have a lot to learn, and your NAME will be associated with any mistakes you make. You DO have a lot of competition in your area, and your competition will use any mistakes you make now, against you as you grow. Dont shoot yourself in the foot coming out of the gate.

PS, I am not the grammar or spelling police and make a lot of typos myself, but CERTAINLY begins with a "c" ... you have misspelled it every single time (I was a homeschooling mom, so seeing the same word used often, spelled incorrectly repeatedly is driving me nuts LOL).

 

[studiovette]

I really hope it works out for you. Passion is good, but baby steps. You have a lot to learn, and your NAME will be associated with any mistakes you make. You DO have a lot of competition in your area, and your competition will use any mistakes you make now, against you as you grow. Dont shoot yourself in the foot coming out of the gate.

PS, I am not the grammar or spelling police and make a lot of typos myself, but CERTAINLY begins with a "c" ... you have misspelled it every single time (I was a homeschooling mom, so seeing the same word used often, spelled incorrectly repeatedly is driving me nuts LOL).

LMAO!!!! I'm glad you said something!!

 

[capewind]

LMAO!!!! I'm glad you said something!!

Dont encourage me LOL ... I know my own typing is atrocious (I rarely proof read), and in general conversation, I use little grammar skill, I type as I would speak it in a casual conversation ... but having a bookcase full of text books, I know the grammar/spelling rules well ... so used to correcting my kids ,,, this one word was getting to me ... feel like a jerk for mentioning it on a chat board LOL.

 

[NOVA Merd]

Haha yeah i've never been good at spelling...i excell at other things.

 

[Waterbug]

This number is fine if you are ONLY talking fuel, but then there is still general maintence on said vehicle, repairs, tires, and INSURANCE. I'll agree to skip over all the work related tools and equipment, as you did touch on this.

No, that's not correct. 60-75 cents per mile is an estimate from AAA for all expenses. ONLY talking fuel $0.50-0.75 per mile would mean your mileage is 4.5 to 7 gals/mile. What are you driving? No one stays in business long with that kind of mileage.

All true, but the experience is lacking to be a QUALIFIED professional. We see hacks everyday who THINK they are professionals. I "appreciate" the hackers, as they actually generate MORE work for us. It usually costs more to clean up someone else's screw up. (Not implying anything about this poster, just the general fact of what we see in the real world.)

QUALIFIED? By who? Self QUALIFIED. All hacks say they're QUALIFIED professionals. Ask them what that means and they haven't a clue. The louder they scream it the more of a hack they probably are.

People secure in their trade don't feel the need to complain about hacks because they're in a different market.

 

[capewind]

No, that's not correct. 60-75 cents per mile is an estimate from AAA for all expenses. ONLY talking fuel $0.50-0.75 per mile would mean your mileage is 4.5 to 7 gals/mile. What are you driving? No one stays in business long with that kind of mileage.

I found a AAA link giving this info..
http://newsroom.aaa.com/2012/04/cos...ing-to-aaa’s-2012-‘your-driving-costs’-study/

I think you choosing $0.50 a gallon was too conservative. $0.50 is appropriate for a small to mid size economy car, but MOST people wouldnt be putting all the tools you noted earlier (for a pond cleaning) into such a vehicle. The largest vehicle catagory they list is SUV, 4wd (at almost $0.76 per mile), yet are listing: Chevrolet Traverse, Ford Explorer, Jeep Grand Cherokee, Nissan Pathfinder and Toyota 4Runner, which are MID SIZED SUVs. I personally drive an Expedition (have two), and older daughter now has an Explorer. Her Explorer gets better mileage than either of our Expeditions, and has smaller tires than ours as well. (AAA includes tires) ,,, 15" tires tend to cost less than 17" tires. Two years ago, new tires on my truck was just over $1000. I didnt get anything "fancy" and went to the cheapest place around (Town Fair Tire)... now where I am going with this is AAA isnt applicaple. EXPEDITIONS (larger than AAA's midsized SUVs) is still SMALLER than most WORK trucks. My under carriage is similar to an F150, which is only a half ton. MOST contractors here are running F350/3500 series GMC type, 1 ton trucks. If they are driving the truck personally, they probably opted to spend the extra $4 or $5 thousand for the diesel, but if they are putting employees behind the wheel, are paying for fuel in big V-8s ... What are they getting for average miles? 12-15 mpg if they are lucky? AAA's listed small and midsized sedans are likely getting 25-40 mpg (which they listed as $0.45 - $0.58 per mile to own) and can get a set of tires as low as $300 (looking at the Town Fair website) ...

QUALIFIED? By who? Self QUALIFIED. All hacks say they're QUALIFIED professionals. Ask them what that means and they haven't a clue. The louder they scream it the more of a hack they probably are.

My personal definition of a qualified person is one who can get the job done CORRECTLY, ON TIME, and ON BUDGET. I dont care what trade we are talking about.

People secure in their trade don't feel the need to complain about hacks because they're in a different market.

In some regards I like the hackers, as they do generate more work for us, but what really bothers me is we both hate seeing clients get screwed. That has nothing to do with job security but work ethics and integrity, which is something serevely lacking in many trades ... Job security from a financial position, THAT I am not worried about, even in this economy LOL. Been on the books for 23 yrs and still going strong It is getting on towards that time to start thinking about retirement, as we are in our 40s now. According to our kids, we are OLD.

 

[Waterbug]

Debating whether the number is 50 cents, 75 cents, 1000 cents is foolish and obviously not the point of running numbers in order to run a business.