Dying young koi... need help. flukes?

[Formypet]

hello, my sons koi that we bought just a week ago has died. I noticed this mark on it. the other koi I've noticed now has it. how do I treat this problem?. thank you for all the help.

 

[Mmathis]

Oh my! Tell us more about the pond: how big is it? how many koi? were the other fish fine until this new one was added? what are the water tests?

 

[Formypet]

the pond is 400 gallon. 3 small koi, now 2. upsizing pond in feb. the water tests results were not great. ammonia is 0.5mg. nitrite was I think 10mg. the filter system is the topclear 5000 and the pump is superfish 5000. I bought the koi altogether. I'm now buying for the ammonia. what do you think is best? actually I tested the water earlier and didn't expect to see those results. 2 hours later I found out that one of the fish was struggling. that's when I found out about the mark. all went downhill from my perspective so quickly.

 

[j.w]

If no one here knows you might try: https://www.koiphen.com/forums/
They have some people there that will prolly know what is going on.

 

[Formypet]

thanks, I've started a thread on there. I need to also decrease the ammonia, nitrite and ph. ph was at 8.5. I dont know what to get as dont want to harm fish with too much chemicals.

 

[Mmathis]

@Formypet Good for you on the chemicals! How long has the pond been up and running? It may be that it hasn’t had time to properly cycle.

 

[Formypet]

the pond literally has only been up and running a few days before I got the koi. in hindsight I shouldn't of bought the koi so soon, but was with my son and they looked so nice and he was so happy that I bought them. I just now want to sort the problem out. i got to sort out the pond levels ammonia, and I got to know how that fish died. what disease etc so I can treat the pond.

 

[WaterGardener]

Are there any sharp points in the pond that could have caused an injury?

This is likely a water quality issue stressing the fish and allowing an infection to take hold.

Prime, made by Seachen can bind the ammonia and nitrite and prevent it from harming the fish. It has to be dosed every 48 hours for that purpose.

Don't worry about the pH, it's fine, but those other issues need to be dealt with asap.

Always fix the water first. Most problems will resolve with good water.

Check your tap water and make sure there is no ammonia and nitrite there. If there is none, water changes could help reduce those numbers. Be sure to re-dose Prime after every water change.

 

[Mmathis]

the pond literally has only been up and running a few days before I got the koi. in hindsight I shouldn't of bought the koi so soon, but was with my son and they looked so nice and he was so happy that I bought them. I just now want to sort the problem out. i got to sort out the pond levels ammonia, and I got to know how that fish died. what disease etc so I can treat the pond.

You can do small, frequent water changes (with de chlorinator if your source water contains chlorine or chloramines). I think Prime is recommended for reducing ammonia, but in your case, you may be beyond that point — but you can try. Be sure to have water movement via a pump and or aerators going to increase the O2 content.

See what KOIPHEN has to say about any disease process that might be going on and maybe they can recommend treatment.

BE SURE YOU TELL THEM THE SIZE OF THE POND AND THAT IT HAS NOT YET BEEN CYCLED! That is important info.

They will probably ask you to scrape and scope the fish, but if you don’t have a microscope and aren’t experienced doing that, it probably won’t help. They might also recommend a salt bath or dip, which can be helpful in a pinch. We recommend that as a treatment, but we don’t advocate the routine use of salt in a freshwater pond.

I am so sorry you are having to go through this, but the hardest lesson to learn with ponds is to have patience — and it’s an especially important learning process when kids are involved.

If these koi survive, please consider finding them a new home and consider goldfish instead (or….build a larger pond). You water volume isn’t adequate for koi. Also, study up on the nitrogen cycle and cycling the pond.

 

[WaterGardener]

Prime is a dechlorinator as well, so it should be all you need right now.

It does not reduce ammonia and nitrite, but binds it so that it is not available to the fish. But that binding will last only 48 hours. And it can be dosed safely up to 5 times the normal dose without harm to the fish, so I don't think it's too late to use it.

But it is essential to use it every 48 hours. The binding will only last that long, after which all that bound ammonia and nitrite will be released back into the water.

 

[Mgessert]

They died from the nitrite and ammonia.

 

[WaterGardener]

That would be my guess, too.

 

[Formypet]

You can do small, frequent water changes (with de chlorinator if your source water contains chlorine or chloramines). I think Prime is recommended for reducing ammonia, but in your case, you may be beyond that point — but you can try. Be sure to have water movement via a pump and or aerators going to increase the O2 content.

See what KOIPHEN has to say about any disease process that might be going on and maybe they can recommend treatment.

BE SURE YOU TELL THEM THE SIZE OF THE POND AND THAT IT HAS NOT YET BEEN CYCLED! That is important info.

They will probably ask you to scrape and scope the fish, but if you don’t have a microscope and aren’t experienced doing that, it probably won’t help. They might also recommend a salt bath or dip, which can be helpful in a pinch. We recommend that as a treatment, but we don’t advocate the routine use of salt in a freshwater pond.

I am so sorry you are having to go through this, but the hardest lesson to learn with ponds is to have patience — and it’s an especially important learning process when kids are involved.

If these koi survive, please consider finding them a new home and consider goldfish instead (or….build a larger pond). You water volume isn’t adequate for koi. Also, study up on the nitrogen cycle and cycling the pond.

you're very right. I was going to get goldfish, the dealer used to do them, but no longer does. the koi looked so nice. it was hypnotising good. I do want to learn a lot about koi. been watching videos etc. beautiful fish.

 

[Formypet]

Prime is a dechlorinator as well, so it should be all you need right now.

It does not reduce ammonia and nitrite, but binds it so that it is not available to the fish. But that binding will last only 48 hours. And it can be dosed safely up to 5 times the normal dose without harm to the fish, so I don't think it's too late to use it.

But it is essential to use it every 48 hours. The binding will only last that long, after which all that bound ammonia and nitrite will be released back into the water.

I used dechlorinator when I did the pond. so I have to use prime every 48 hours all the time or is there eventually another way to let ammonia and nitrite permanently to lower level? thank you for the help.

 

[Mmathis]

I used dechlorinator when I did the pond. so I have to use prime every 48 hours all the time or is there eventually another way to let ammonia and nitrite permanently to lower level? thank you for the help.

IMO, for that small of a pond….with koi….you’ll probably be doing it a lot. Koi are big waste producers. Be sure your pond is cycled properly to begin with.

 

[WaterGardener]

You need to use Prime every 48 hours until your pond finishes establishing the nitrogen cycle. Please read up on that and it will help you understand the process.

That can take several weeks. Once that cycle has been established, all the beneficial bacteria you need for processing the ammonia to nitrite and then to the less toxic nitrate will be present in your system. If you have adequate filtration your ammonia and nitrite will be at zero where it belongs and you won't need Prime, except for dechlorinating the water.

Don't be talked into trying any short cuts or bacteria in a bottle products. Those are not the same bacteria that you need and they won't help, no matter what the pet store folks say.

You just have to give this time and use Prime to protect your fish from the toxins. After the cycle is established, you will only.need whatever product you choose as a decorinator.

And honestly, with your water at those levels, I wouldn't be too concerned about keeping the water changes small. I would do change as much water as possible to get the fish into better water. To me, this is an emergency situation and needs drastic measures.

I have done 100% water changes daily for weeks with no bad effects to the fish. They were better off with completely new water than swimming in water that was poisoning them.

 

[Formypet]

update: I have taken drastic action. not sure it's the right thing to do. I tested the tap water and it reads no ammonia. I then put the fish in tank with a pump. they seemed ok. I 100% have changed the water. i have now put new water in the pond with dechlorinator. the pond at moment now reads 0 ammonia. I am now going to buy the ammonia binder has advised which will come in a few days. not feeding the fish or should I feed once a day at moment until binder comes?. I am going to test the water daily and change the water 50% each day. I also have this anti biotic that I use for fishing, is it ok to use on the burns for the koi?

did I do the right thing? i cant let them swim in toxic water that's harming them.

 

[WaterGardener]

I think you did the right thing. But since you don't have enough beneficial bacteria yet, the ammonia will quickly build back. So doing large water changes is a good idea in my opinion.

Right now you can do that daily for the sake of the fish, but once you have Prime, I would do them every other day. The fish will be protected with Prime and the bacteria needs ammonia to feed on and grow. So you don't want to eliminate it all at this point. It will still be there and can feed the bacteria, but it won't be available to the fish.

This is the difficult part of cycling when fish are present. You have to have ammonia for the bacteria, but it is dangerous for the fish. So binding the ammonia is really the only reasonable option.

I think you don't need the antibiotics. The fish will heal on their own in good water. Also the antibiotics can kill the beneficial bacteria you are trying to get established.

Never use antibiotics in the pond. If you need to treat with antibiotics, put the fish in a hospital tank and treat them there.

I just took a closer look at the antibiotic you have. As a topical treatment, it should be fine. Just don't pour it into the pond.

 

[Formypet]

I think you did the right thing. But since you don't have enough beneficial bacteria yet, the ammonia will quickly build back. So doing large water changes is a good idea in my opinion.

Right now you can do that daily for the sake of the fish, but once you have Prime, I would do them every other day. The fish will be protected with Prime and the bacteria needs ammonia to feed on and grow. So you don't want to eliminate it all at this point. It will still be there and can feed the bacteria, but it won't be available to the fish.

This is the difficult part of cycling when fish are present. You have to have ammonia for the bacteria, but it is dangerous for the fish. So binding the ammonia is really the only reasonable option.

I think you don't need the antibiotics. The fish will heal on their own in good water. Also the antibiotics can kill the beneficial bacteria you are trying to get established.

Never use antibiotics in the pond. If you need to treat with antibiotics, put the fish in a hospital tank and treat them there.

I just took a closer look at the antibiotic you have. As a topical treatment, it should be fine. Just don't pour it into the pond.

thank you for your help. I listened to what you said and took the drastic action. what should I do about the feeding? should I stop feeding until the binder comes or feed once a day? I am going to do 100% changes of water daily until binder comes. it makes sense what you said, so thanks and hopefully I can rescue the fish. it does look like though it has a bacterial infection or a disease.

 

[WaterGardener]

I would stop feeding. The fish will be fine.

I think you can use the medication that you have if you just use it on the fish and not the entire pond. The problem may be that by now the infection could be internal and topical antibiotics probably won't help with that.

I would think that a 50% water change would be enough. Just watch the water parameters and if things get out of control, you can do more.

Sorry you are having to deal with this and I hope the fish will recover soon.