Elevated pump and check valve question; barrel filter thoughts

[jmajid]

Hi,
Looking to improve the pond operation and looking for some advice.
I have not been online in a while, but it's a new year and I got tired of the way the current setup is not working for me. I realized the previous owner of the pond may have made a mistake and am trying to confirm my suspicions.

Setup: Concrete inground pond (2000gal) with 4 medium koi, 3 gold fish, 1 shubunkin. Use a bottom drain (exact size unknown), 1.5" line to the inside of the garage where there is a Lifegard seahorse 3/4 HP pump/leaf filter. Output of this currently goes to a ball valve and then to a pressure filter and then onto a UV lamp (doesnt work and leaks) and then to a waterfall approx. 3 to 4 ft higher than surface of water. Drain at approx. 3ft below max water height.
There is a Jandy valve on the output of the pump that tees to the ball valve or to two outlets at mid height on the pond walls... i think these are to provide additional water movement?

Issue: Anytime I have had to stop the pump for any reason (on purpose or other) it's been a pain to restart it...it wont prime easily at all and I now think there is no check valve between the drain and pump.

How can i confirm the connection and see if there is a check valve at all or if its working? I tried a couple things:
1. Pump off, push water with garden hose keeping an eye on how much water i pushed into the leaf filter inlet and using de-cholrinator as i went, to see if i could see the water being disturbed in the pond, but couldnt.
2. Pump off, tried to use a Danner AP20 air pump to push some air into the same inlet at the leaf filter - not sure if i could see any air bubbles...

I might try to push air from a blower into the same lead filter inlet and see if i can see air bubbles....?

All said, regardless, I know i need a check valve... what are my options?

Try to dig adjacent to the pond and insert a check valve vertically before the drain?
Or can i put it closer to the leaf filter and horizontally? I am not sure this will work or even help in this location?

Future improvement - near term - will be changing out the pressure filter to a Sand/Gravel filter design that looks like a design that birdman did on Koiphen with a second barrel as bio filter. Just unsure about using the bottom of the barrel as the inlet, but may instead use the inlet at the side towards the bottom and use a 90deg to the shower drain? Not sure i want to have the barrel elevated is my reasoning (also leaking and subsequently hard to work on)
Will change output to waterfall to 2" line to ensure outlet tubing is larger than inlet.

Sorry in advance for any typos or silly questions I have asked or may ask!

 

[mgmine]

It doesn't matter where you put the check valve but I would put it vertically (or horizontally) in a place where I could see it. Much like you would do on a sump pump, I have not found the PVC valves to work. So I would get a good brass one. As far as pimping air in tom test what you have it could actually cause the valve to fail.

 

[jmajid]

It doesn't matter where you put the check valve but I would put it vertically (or horizontally) in a place where I could see it. Much like you would do on a sump pump, I have not found the PVC valves to work. So I would get a good brass one. As far as pimping air in tom test what you have it could actually cause the valve to fail.

Thanks for the reply.
My water level changes throughout the season, sometimes due to rainfall and sometimes due to my not topping it up.
So does the check valve location matter? Should i get it as close as i can to the bottom drain?
My problem is that i tried to dig into the ground to see where i could locate it and i quickly came across concrete... seems the previous owner must have concreted in the lines to the bottom drain (!)... why? I dont know...
So, if i put any kind of check valve above the water line, does it do anything? My thinking - no... but open to others....

 

[mgmine]

Thanks for the reply.
My water level changes throughout the season, sometimes due to rainfall and sometimes due to my not topping it up.
So does the check valve location matter? Should i get it as close as i can to the bottom drain?
My problem is that i tried to dig into the ground to see where i could locate it and i quickly came across concrete... seems the previous owner must have concreted in the lines to the bottom drain (!)... why? I dont know...
So, if i put any kind of check valve above the water line, does it do anything? My thinking - no... but open to others....

Put it close to the pump and not the drain. The farther away from the pump the more water in the line. If you were to put a check valve at the drain level it would be a foot valve. Do you have a sump pump? If so you can see that it's very close to the pump so all that the water in the line doesn't run back into the sump.

 

[jmajid]

Put it close to the pump and not the drain. The farther away from the pump the more water in the line. If you were to put a check valve at the drain level it would be a foot valve. Do you have a sump pump? If so you can see that it's very close to the pump so all that the water in the line doesn't run back into the sump.

I have a concrete pond, irregular shaped and not flat; the bottom drain is in the lowest area and the concrete around it is angled towards the drain.
The pump is external and it's a LIfegard Seahorse 3/4HP pump with a leaf filter pot in front of it. It's in my garage and its above typical water level of the pond. It's fed with 1.5" flexible line currently.
That 1.5" line exits the garage wall and i can see it with a 90deg elbow go down into the ground to the bottom drain that is not far - but below the pump. I dug down just adjacent to the line going into the ground to see how or what i could see and found concrete.
The outlet of the pump goes to a Jandy 3 way valve which goes to two eyeballs on the pond wall and the other side goes to an existing pressure filter (which i will be changing out).
Priming the pump is hard to do (yes, i fill the filter pot), especially when the level in the pond is lower than normal. Living in Houston, we have irregular power outages These then stop the pump; most times its not for long so the pump starts up again, but sometimes it wont...because it lost prime.
I will take photos later and attach so you can see the layout.... i am open to change the tubing/pipes/layout - just want to get this easier to use as we are all getting no younger
I thought if the check valve was closer to the pump i will still have a column of pipe with no water in it on the upflow side of the check valve when the pump stops as it will drain back to the water level of the pond, no? Is that ok? or will i still have issues getting this external pump primed?

 

[mgmine]

Those are issues and once the water column is gone then it can be hard to start it up again, A foot valve would be ideal but not possible in your situation. Well, it would but it would take some doing to connect to the drain. Does your drain have any way of attaching another section of pipe to it? A lot depends on how the pump deals with the prime. Pulling water is not as good as pushing water. In my situation, I have a 1/2 hp pump mounted in the skimmer pushing water up to a head of15 feet. I have a check valve at the pump, not that it matters because the pump doesn't need to be primed. But the column of water is so heavy that the pvc check valve can't handle it.

 

[poconojoe]

I'm no expert on external pumps or water flow.
I guess what you are trying to achieve is to somehow keep the pump full of water even during a power outage. Basically keep it primed indefinitely.
Can this be achieved by adding two check valves? One on each side of the pump?

 

[brokensword]

not sure if this applies, but from very recent well pump replacement conversations, it's not a good idea to have multiple checkvalves. I think it causes hammering which is hard on the pump. Again, it might not apply here?

 

[GBBUDD]

Check valves are not great nor are they fool proof. If you can create a trap like under your sink with the water line so that not far from the pump the water level stays a constant close to your pump limiting how much air gets in the supply line that may be enough to let the pump self prime.

An other option is to cut in a garden hose valve but you will need a double female adapter to fit the garden hose end and to attach to the new garden spigot turn on the water from the hose and fire up the pump .