Eratic Swimming then resting with clamped fins

[Hazel]

I have a large established pond with Koi, Sarassa's and Goldfish. I have just been given a large Koi approx 18 inches? plus another 5 Goldfish. The Koi is more than 20 years old.

They arrived on Wednesday 20th May 2020, and everything seemed fine. However starting yesterday Saturday 23rd May the Koi seems listless and not wanting to swim far, when he does swim it is quite erratic before coming to rest again shortly after with Clamped Finns,. I have not seem him take food either since he's been here.

Today is "Day 3" in the process of a 5 day treatment of "Blagdon's Fish Aid All In One" for parasites and the like. Is this likely to have caused this behaviour, or could he still be stressed from the move, or could it be the cold and windy weather?. He also has a white spot in the centre of his "nearside" eye, but he came with that. Is that infection, a Cataract or something else. What could you please advise ?

All of the fish came from a small pond measuring 6 foot long, 3 feet wide and 3 feet deep.

One of the Goldfish that came with him has another problem which I will tag on the bottom of this.
As mentioned above one of the goldfish has a weird swimming action, as soon as it stops swimming it tips downwards (tail to the top) has a rest, then starts swimming again. Does it have "Swim Bladder" trouble, or could this also be brought on by the stress of the move? What could you please advise?

 

[IPA]

Are the new fish in an isolation tank or in your main pond?

 

[Hazel]

In the Main Pond

 

[Hazel]

Ideally I know I should have an isolation pond - but I don't at the minute. The Guy who gave me the fish said I could have the 6 ft x 3 ft x 3 ft pond to use an isolation pond, but it's not here yet

 

[IPA]

I am sorry to hear about your fish being sick.
Why did you add a treatment? Were your existing fish having issues or was it for the fish you just added? Do you use any other treatments/chemicals? Did you do any recent water changes? Did you test your water before using the treatment and are you testing water now?
Initial test should be for ammonia, pH and hardness. Please test and post results, also with water temperature. If you are doing a full compliment of test post all results.
approx size of pond in gallons or liters? Approx depth, and overview of filtration system. I am not the most qualified to give advice on fish health but there are plenty here that can help and these are some of the details they will need to assist you.

 

[Lisak1]

@Hazel - most do recommend isolation, but that only eliminates the possibility that the new fish would infect the existing fish in the pond. The other possibility is the new fish can be affected by something about the pond that the existing fish are not bothered by. I guess my point is - it's risky to move fish to a new pond on both ends. Clearly this is a fish that was doing well in it's old location, but maybe the stress of the move was too much being that it is a large, older fish, the move was not handled well, or the change in water conditions are not agreeable. I Just don't want you to feel too bad about the fact that you don't have a qt pond - just having one large enough for a fish that size would be more than most of us could provide.

I don't know what the treatment is that you mentioned, but do answer the questions posed above so we can get an idea what might be happening.

 

[Hazel]

Thank you for getting back to me.

I added the treatment as one of the fish already in the pond had waxy? patches from the dorsal fin to it's tail. It does't look like "Cotton Wool Fungus", and it doesn't look like "Carp Pox" either. It has had them for a some time now and was advised that the fish would "Grow out of it?" and it has not affected any of the other fish. A couple of the fish were "Flashing" on the bottom too, so rather than trying to catch the individual and causing stress I thought a general all in one treatment for the whole pond may help everything?

I use the JBL 6 in 1 test and this is what it showed before treatment and now:-

NO 3 - Nitrate = 10 mg/1
NO 2 - Nitrite = 0 mg/1
GH = >7 degrees d
KH = 10 degrees d
PH = 7.2
CL 2 = 0.8

The pond water temperature at the moment is 13.7 degrees c. It was a lot warmer on Day 1 of the treatment (Friday) but may be a little too cold for the "Blagdon All In One" to work as efficiently as it should?

The pond holds 2500 gallons, and was last given a small water change and top up with approx 400 gallons via hosepipe on Thursday 21st May. I add Tetra Aquasafe to remove the Chlorine too at 50 mls to every 220 gallon.

It is a kidney shape pond, about 20 feet in length and 10 feet wide. It has a shelf about 18" deep around the edge then is 4 feet deep in the middle.

The Filteration system is a "Hozelock BioForce 14000" with a small built in UV Light. Every Day you have to turn the Diverter Valve to "waste position" before turning the handle to remove any built up waste within the pressurised system, once the water is running clear, turn the diverter valve back to "pond" position then it flows back into the pond via the waterfall.

This is about as much as I can tell you, but I hope you can help?

Many thanks in advance - H

 

[Lisak1]

Thanks @Hazel - all good information. How many fish are in the pond in total now? How many are koi vs goldfish and how big/old are the koi? I ask about koi in particular because goldfish add very little biomass to a pond, but koi are another story - the produce a prodigious amount of waste as they grow and can really stress a pond quickly.

Like @IPA I am not a fish disease expert, so I don't know what the waxy growths were on your fish - are you able to get a photo of it? Erratic swimming and flashing usually points to parasites - so hopefully your treatment will address that specifically. Clamped fins can mean water quality issues, but can also just indicate a badly stressed fish. I think time and observation are the two key elements right now. Hopefully you will start to see improvement.

 

[Hazel]

@Hazel - most do recommend isolation, but that only eliminates the possibility that the new fish would infect the existing fish in the pond. The other possibility is the new fish can be affected by something about the pond that the existing fish are not bothered by. I guess my point is - it's risky to move fish to a new pond on both ends. Clearly this is a fish that was doing well in it's old location, but maybe the stress of the move was too much being that it is a large, older fish, the move was not handled well, or the change in water conditions are not agreeable. I Just don't want you to feel too bad about the fact that you don't have a qt pond - just having one large enough for a fish that size would be more than most of us could provide.

I don't know what the treatment is that you mentioned, but do answer the questions posed above so we can get an idea what might be happening.

Hi Lisa, Thank you for getting back to me and I have answered the questions to the best of my ability, hoping that an answer can be found?
Yes, he is a good sized fish and we know that he is over 20 years old. His ex owner brought him in a tub on the back of a trailer, only 6 miles, but long enough to Stress him out to the nine's! and it was hardly big enough for him let alone the "Big" goldfish that accompany'd him! as they are all between 9" and 12 " too!! His ex owner also said that the Koi had suffered from Stress in the past, but seemed to become more settled with company.
They had all been in a pond of a similar size to mine, and when the chap decided that he no longer wanted to keep fish, he put them all in his isolation pond (6ft x 3ft x 3ft) which is the one they have been living in for some time, I know this as in winter he kept feeding them as the water was warm enough due to a pond heater in there, it also had a sheet of glass over the top?
I hope this helps a little more?
Thank you in anticipation

 

[Lisak1]

This poor fish has been through the ringer. That 'isolation pond" was far too small for that size fish, let alone with his companions. I think at this point I would just leave the fish be and hope for the best, unless you start seeing signs of infection. Hopefully the parasitic treatment will take care of anything he might have picked up in your pond and things will start to improve. Sometimes, when dealing, with nature, less is more. Adding one treatment on top of the next will only add to the stress and confuse the issue completely.

And again - how many fish do you have in the pond now? Make sure you haven't created an unconquerable problem by overstocking your own pond.

 

[j.w]

@Hazel
Sounds like you might have too many fish in the 2500 gal pond. How many koi do you have? Koi need 500 to 1000 gals of water per fish : https://theponddigger.com/2012/01/22/dangerous-rules-how-many-koi-can-i-have-in-my-pond/
Sorry you did not have an isolation pond for the new fish. Nothing you can do now but watch and wait and hope whatever is wrong can be treated. I do not know what the issue is but hopefully the treatment you gave them will work.

 

[Hazel]

Thanks @Hazel - all good information. How many fish are in the pond in total now? How many are koi vs goldfish and how big/old are the koi? I ask about koi in particular because goldfish add very little biomass to a pond, but koi are another story - the produce a prodigious amount of waste as they grow and can really stress a pond quickly.

Like @IPA I am not a fish disease expert, so I don't know what the waxy growths were on your fish - are you able to get a photo of it? Erratic swimming and flashing usually points to parasites - so hopefully your treatment will address that specifically. Clamped fins can mean water quality issues, but can also just indicate a badly stressed fish. I think time and observation are the two key elements right now. Hopefully you will start to see improvement.

Hi Lisa, There are a lot of fish, probably too many, however some of the Goldfish will be going to a new home shortly. We gently put a "Cray Fish" trap in the pond rather than chasing them round with a large net - not good!
I would say there are 21 Koi v about 120 Goldfish, (they breed like crazy!)

The Koi are:-
1 x 18"
4 x 15"
5 x 12"
2 x 8"
6 x 6"
3 x 4"
Ranging from 2 yrs to 15 yrs? then the 18" (the one in question) who we know to be at least 20 yrs old.

I've just been back out to the pond and "Kenny" who is the Koi in question (sorry, it may be a daft name, but that was the guy's name who I got him off!) was swimming around perhaps not as erratically, but has now gone under the oxygenating weed and probably on the bottom, so I can't see what he's up to.

I hope this helps?
Thanks Lisa

 

[Hazel]

View attachment 129224@Hazel
Sounds like you might have too many fish in the 2500 gal pond. How many koi do you have? Koi need 500 to 1000 gals of water per fish : https://theponddigger.com/2012/01/22/dangerous-rules-how-many-koi-can-i-have-in-my-pond/
Sorry you did not have an isolation pond for the new fish. Nothing you can do now but watch and wait and hope whatever is wrong can be treated. I do not know what the issue is but hopefully the treatment you gave them will work.

Hi J.W, I know you are probably right about the number of fish in the pond, there are 21 Koi along with the Goldfish, and as I said to Lisa we are going to be trapping some to go to their new home once the last of the treatment has been administered, so hopefully next week? so I'll be checking out the link you kindly sent, Thank You for your help

I've just read "The Rule Of Thumb" and yes I'm definitely over stocked, I need to reduce to half the number of Koi, and let the Goldfish go! Many thanks for that, I need to get cracking!