Filter ? need some help

[Joejoe80]

I get the plants kept the water clean. I understand and I get that plants keep everybody’s water clean. That they filter out nutrients I get it.
It is the beneficial bacteria that creates a nitrogen cycle without beneficial bacteria there is no nitrogen cycle.
without ammonia there’s no beneficial bacteria to grow. if ammonia builds up without beneficial bacteria. There is nothing to turn that ammonia into nitrite. Which more bacteria then turns into nitrate which is what your plants feed off of

beneficial bacteria even grows on the liner so scrubbing the liner it’s self will knock out some of your beneficial bacteria. jdisrupting your nitrogen cycle.
Scrubbing and cleaning and stirring up all that Muck and detritus will actually cause an ammonia spike. which will cause the nitrogen process to completely cycle over again. and if your beneficial bacteria isn’t there or populated enough that’s when your system becomes out of balance.

I have seen this hundreds and hundreds of times in fish tanks alone
People get an algae problem they start scrubbing everything .cleaning all the filters .cleaning all the rock .cleaning all the substrate. all that does is make it worse.
It kills off the beneficial bacteria anaerobic bacteria. that turns ammonia into nitrite which then turns it into nitrate and your plants can feed off of.

Now in a fish tank it’s a lot less water and more controlled.
the best thing to do is to turn off all the lights. Which obviously with an outdoor pond you can’t.
Physically remove as much Algae as possible. and do water changes. Water changes are going to dilute the nutrients in the water. I.e. ammonia nitrite nitrate.

Judging from everything that you’re telling us. It wasn’t a filtration issue. It was a natural issue that you have no control over whether it’s debris, temperature, water issue.
All of that added together. And then breaking down most of your system and cleaning and scrubbing everything you wiped out your filtration system your beneficial bacteria
Which caused the nitrogen cycle to start again cause the pneumonia spike and being that you had all these issues going on there wasn’t enough bacteria populated to keep up with all that excess ammonia and nutrients

I’ve been through this too many times with fish tanks it’s the same thing

Fish water plants. And a nitrogen cycle.
Only difference is sun light vs Artificial light.

The only difference between an indoor fish tank and aquarium and pond is that you have more control over outside issues of an aquarium or fish tank.
I.e. Mother Nature.

 

[Jhn]

i’m not saying that you can’t use plants to outperform the algae growth but if that’s what you’re using plants for you have a problem in your system.

And just because all you have is plants in your pond. does not mean you don’t have beneficial bacteria. beneficial bacteria lives in everything including plants.
Only when a system becomes in balanced biologically you begin to have problems.

it don’t matter what type of system it is.fish tank, pond, pool with fish in it it don’t matter. water is water. fish are fish plants are plants they all need the same thing. It’s all the same filtration processes it’s all nitrogen cycle the nitrogen cycle is the same for everything no matter what.

The nitrogen cycle is able to be fully completed and processed without plants in any water system.
That’s because of the beneficial bacteria that grows during the nitrogen process.

If plants were so necessary then the nitrogen process would not be able to be completed without them.


Plants are biological filtration. And serve the same exact purpose in a fish tank as it does a pond they’re exact same thing fish are fish plants are plants it don’t matter if it’s in a fish tank aquarium or a pond it’s all the same concept all the same cycling processes all the same bacteria’s everything is exactly the same.
Light is absolutely a source for algae to grow. But without nutrients or excess nutrients in the water nothing will grow including plants.
If the biological beneficial bacteria is populated enough in any water system there is no need for plants. Or any other type of extra filtration such as UV.
Anaerobic bacteria alone should be enough to handle the waste produced by your fish and your feeding as long as it’s not being over done. Or over stocked.

Bacteria population Can only grow so big. If Fish waste and feeding is not exceeding the amount of waste the beneficial bacteria can process then there will be no excess nutrients in the water. And no need for any other type of filtration.
We overfeed and overstock our ponds that’s the reason why you need extra filtration such as plants.
Besides them being nice to look at and natural.
The only way for algae to grow is if there is an biological imbalance in the system.

I have ran full reef systems with high output T5 lighting and 150 watt metal highlights. I’ve used everything from compact to leds.
12 hour day 12 hour night cycle 1 hour sun rise 1 hour sun set.
Pushing as much light for as long as possible to get as much growth out of coral and plants as possible.
never have I had anybody that I help with fish tanks or reef tanks or any other water system that I know of have I ever had an algae issue.
except for when the system is under filtered overfed and overstocked. Which the biological bacteria is underpopulated for the amount of waist being produced.

like I said before plants are not necessary. they do aid in infiltration.
But adding plants that grow fast to outperform the algae that’s growing is not a fix it’s a Band-Aid you should not have to add rapidly growing plants to hopefully outgrow the algae.
Some algae growth is to be expected but it should not be in excess. As long as your system is in balance.
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Indeed bacteria does grow on everything in the water, never said it didn’t, and never said that it wasn’t necessary. There are many ways to keep a pond in balance it comes down to which method you prefer.

To say plants are a bandaid in a pond and are only needed if the pond is out of balance is just plain wrong. Band aids are using uv filters or dumping chemicals in the pond to battle green water. If plants where a band aid my ponds would have failed a loooong time ago. Plants are just another form of nutrient removal via banking as they grow then export when the plants are trimmed back or even can be recycled as the fish eat the plants then start the process over again.

The plants, the periphyton layer that builds upon everything in the pond, the bugs, the photo and zoo plankton, the fish, establishes a balanced food web. Yes, you can have a successful “balanced pond” that has no plants or food web but for me personally, I don’t want a sterile crystal “gin” clear pond that relies on mechanical filters etc., because basically it is now just an outdoor aquarium. I prefer the natural eco pond method with proper circulation and plants to create a natural food web. I enjoy watching various wildlife around the pond (except for herons and turtle snatching hawks). Everyone’s pond becomes overstocked at some point if fish aren’t removed Or something eats them. My pond has a crap ton of fish in it as well as turtles. Yet have never had an algae problem in all the years I have kept ponds, which is just as long as you have kept reef tanks. I also come from the saltwater/reef keeping side as well, which I have had various styles of tanks off and on since I was in middle school.



Also, in response to your last post plants do not just feed off nitrates, they also feed off ammonia which as you mentioned is the starting point of the nitrogen cycle.

 

[Joejoe80]

I can agree to everything you said. I to do not prefer a pond without plants..

I will add though if you only have plants you better have a shit load of plants.

and I’m sure we can agree with everything that has happend and they have done to the pond, that it's best to start over. With a new cycle.
It’s unfortunate but imo it’s best option.

 

[Jhn]

Yes, would agree best to start over again in their case. Sounds like he did already when he emptied it and cleaned it “thoroughly”, which is not good because they got rid of the periphyton layer on the pond sides and bottom, so it is basically like starting over with a new pond.

Would also add if they do start over again, to save the filter media rinse it in pond water and use it to help lessen the length and severity of the cycling process.

 

[Joejoe80]

Now do you think it’s easier to start a pond with mechanical biological filtration. This way you know that your beneficial bacteria is well colonized in established. And then add plants to the pond.

or do you think it’s easier to start with plants only.

Thinking about it if you start with plants only. Does that limit you to the types of filtration you can use.
Such as skimmer boxes. you could go with a floating skimmer, but you would not be able to use a fixed skimmer box. Without major modifications.

like for someone like me. Who is new to ponds. Plants can be a little intimidating. I know there are plants that can take over and even damage a ponds.
You really don’t have to worry about a plant root puncturing glass.

 

[Jhn]

I do it as a mix or hybrid, at least in my most recent pond I built 10 years ago. Installed two fixed skimmers mostly just to skim leaves and other crap off the top of the pond before it can sink. Also built an up flow bog and waterfall which each is fed by a different skimmer/pump, as well as planting beds built into the pond out of pea gravel. Then planted various plants and let it run for about a week or so then tossed in a bunch of small koi and goldfish I had over wintered in a tub. ( The fish and plants were rescues from a garden pond we removed for a customer when we regraded his waterfront.) My thoughts on doing this was the plants would uptake some of the ammonia produced by the fish lessening the severity of the cycle.

I have retro fitted a skimmer into my old pond in my first house as it was built before skimmers, it had pump in the pond and an external filter initially.

Aquatic plants shouldnt damage your liner at least all the ones I know of. To me adding plants are jUst as much fun as adding fish. In my main pond the only plants I have in pots are lilies, everything else just kind of grows where it wants. I weed them back eventually, when I think they are getting unruly. A lot of the marginal plants are starting to pop up here and there around the pond edge from seed.

I will say the only plant you don’t want to give free reign in your pond is a yellow flag iris, as it is a plant that will swallow your ponding left alone( have seen it happen in a friends pond first hand). Had to pull it out with a truck and anchor.

 

[Joejoe80]

I do it as a mix or hybrid, at least in my most recent pond I built 10 years ago. Installed two fixed skimmers mostly just to skim leaves and other crap off the top of the pond before it can sink. Also built an up flow bog and waterfall which each is fed by a different skimmer/pump, as well as planting beds built into the pond out of pea gravel. Then planted various plants and let it run for about a week or so then tossed in a bunch of small koi and goldfish I had over wintered in a tub. ( The fish and plants were rescues from a garden pond we removed for a customer when we regraded his waterfront.) My thoughts on doing this was the plants would uptake some of the ammonia produced by the fish lessening the severity of the cycle.

I have retro fitted a skimmer into my old pond in my first house as it was built before skimmers, it had pump in the pond and an external filter initially.

Aquatic plants shouldnt damage your liner at least all the ones I know of. To me adding plants are jUst as much fun as adding fish. In my main pond the only plants I have in pots are lilies, everything else just kind of grows where it wants. I weed them back eventually, when I think they are getting unruly. A lot of the marginal plants are starting to pop up here and there around the pond edge from seed.

I will say the only plant you don’t want to give free reign in your pond is a yellow flag iris, as it is a plant that will swallow your ponding left alone( have seen it happen in a friends pond first hand). Had to pull it out with a truck and anchor.

I’ve herd bamboo roots are real bad. And I’ve herd that lilie roots can overtake a pond real easy. If not potted

this should probably be another topic. Not to derail OP post.

 

[Joejoe80]

Here’s another thing I just was thinking that I should’ve thought before. Even if plants to feed off ammonia and nitrates. They don’t break down the actual physical waste And detritus.
only the bacteria does that?

op stated they had a build up of detritus.
If there was sufficient bacteria per bio load detritus should not be much of a problem.??

Some build up you can’t help. Which is why we do some type of cleaning.

So I would say a lack of mechanical filtration. Such as a surface skimmer. allowing things to settle to the bottom and build up could be a problem among other things.
So they placed a submerged sponge filter/pump. In the pond. All that did was pull in all the gunk it could, and then get clogged.
Which would be common for that style filter pump.
This is why skimmers have some sort of collection net or spot for the bigger debris to be collected, as to not clog your spong, floss, or whatever else you have as filters inside the skimmer.
I do know with sponge filters. if they become clogged up the beneficial bacteria Can die off. And become anaerobic? Or is it aerobic? I forget . Which then will start to produce nitrates.
This happens in canister filters a lot if not cleaned out properly. Cleaned rinsed not scrubbed.

i’m not saying this was the whole problem but I guarantee it did not help

 

[Jhn]

@Sailfish can you get your hands on some type of dechlorinator to use in your pond?

How many fish are in your pond? What types? I ask because even a few pond fish can easily overwhelm a small ponds filter system.

If I read it right your pond is 600 liters, so 158 u.s. gallons, which is small. As joejoe80 suggested I would clean the pond out again, moving the fish to a holding tank with the pond water, pump and filter material. Use the town water to refill after all the detritus and gunk is removed, add dechlorinator to detoxify the chlorine/chloramines. Add an ammonia source to kick start the cycle, can add straight ammonia, small piece of raw meat, pee in the pond, whatever. Then add fish back to pond once cycle is over.

I would think about covering the pond temporarily to prevent all the crap from getting into the pond until the drought is over and to control what goes into it. Obviously, as you found out water changes aren’t always good if your source water isn’t clean.

Lastly your lily most likely didn’t make it because of the water movement created by the added pump, they like still water.the

Joejoe, agree with bacteria aiding in the break down of detritus, however in ponds you get leaves and crap from woody plants as opposed to aquatic plants that if allowed to settle will not breakdown easily like decaying aquatic plants, and waste from aquatic life. Which is where the skimmer comes in hopefully it can get that floating debris before it sinks. Definitely, doesn’t help if the filter media isn’t rinsed off regularly, ideally with pond water.

Unfortunately, sailfish has a myriad of issues happening.

One last piece of advice, the pond even if you restart it once you add fish it will turn green again, this is typical of new ponds as they establish the base of the food web, let it turn green. Dont change the water, don’t run the uv light, this will clear on its own in a month or so, as long as there is nothing getting into the pond to fuel it further.

 

[Joejoe80]

@Sailfish can you get your hands on some type of dechlorinator to use in your pond?

How many fish are in your pond? What types? I ask because even a few pond fish can easily overwhelm a small ponds filter system.

If I read it right your pond is 600 liters, so 158 u.s. gallons, which is small. As joejoe80 suggested I would clean the pond out again, moving the fish to a holding tank with the pond water, pump and filter material. Use the town water to refill after all the detritus and gunk is removed, add dechlorinator to detoxify the chlorine/chloramines. Add an ammonia source to kick start the cycle, can add straight ammonia, small piece of raw meat, pee in the pond, whatever. Then add fish back to pond once cycle is over.

I would think about covering the pond temporarily to prevent all the crap from getting into the pond until the drought is over and to control what goes into it. Obviously, as you found out water changes aren’t always good if your source water isn’t clean.

Lastly your lily most likely didn’t make it because of the water movement created by the added pump, they like still water.the

Joejoe, agree with bacteria aiding in the break down of detritus, however in ponds you get leaves and crap from woody plants as opposed to aquatic plants that if allowed to settle will not breakdown easily like decaying aquatic plants, and waste from aquatic life. Which is where the skimmer comes in hopefully it can get that floating debris before it sinks. Definitely, doesn’t help if the filter media isn’t rinsed off regularly, ideally with pond water.

Unfortunately, sailfish has a myriad of issues happening.

One last piece of advice, the pond even if you restart it once you add fish it will turn green again, this is typical of new ponds as they establish the base of the food web, let it turn green. Dont change the water, don’t run the uv light, this will clear on its own in a month or so, as long as there is nothing getting into the pond to fuel it further.

that’s why I mention about starting a pond with just plants. without mechanical filtration in place.
I guess you could use one of those floating skimmers. But they don’t hold much debris. And have to be emptied quite often.

I would definitely agree there was too many things that happened to go wrong at relatively the same time.

 

[Lisak1]

i’m not saying that you can’t use plants to outperform the algae growth but if that’s what you’re using plants for you have a problem in your system.

I disagree. Plants form part of a healthy pond ecosystem. How does that indicate a problem?

but you would not be able to use a fixed skimmer box.

Why would you think that?

 

[Joejoe80]

I disagree. Plants form part of a healthy pond ecosystem. How does that indicate a problem?



Why would you think that?

We’re did I say plants aren’t part of a ecosystem healthy or not?

however I did say using plants to combat an algae problem. Is not a solution to an algae problem.
We’re not talking about light green algae here and there.

Op stated they were pulling clumps of algae out of their pond by the handful. that’s a problem. So instead of just throwing more plants at it. Figure out the source. over feeding? Too many fish to start? Fish have grown,and now because of size there are to many fish? No aeration. There can be many reasons. But just adding more plants is not a solution. Because if you keep overfeeding if the fish keep getting bigger if they keep having babies. What are you gonna do fill the entire pond up with plants?
It doesn’t work like that there has to be a balance. Algae does not grow like that unless the system is out of balance. it doesn’t matter how many plants you plant in your pond. if your pond is overstocked and it’s overfed and oxygen in the water is insufficient. because plants alone are not gonna be enough to aerate the water. especially if the pond is overstocked.

As far a a fixed skimmer as in built in.
I mean you could, but they need to be cut into the liner. A spot needs to be dig out for it.
Your talking about draining most of the pond. Breaking down a section of wall. To cut a spot for the skimmer box to sit. Then cutting the liner and sealing it to the skimmer. then it has to dry.
is the pond stocked if so. don’t forget about what your going to do with the fish.
not to mention how bad your going to disturb everything. most likely causing ammonia spike and a nitrogen cycle to start.

Is there an easier way to retro fit a fixed skimmer box into a pond?

 

[Jhn]

that’s why I mention about starting a pond with just plants. without mechanical filtration in place.
I guess you could use one of those floating skimmers. But they don’t hold much debris. And have to be emptied quite often.

I would definitely agree there was too many things that happened to go wrong at relatively the same time.

I have started ponds with just plants and minimal mechanical filtration, the pond had it but it wasn’t much. Pond did fine, why because it required more work on my part to keep the pond clean, constantly cleaning gunk/debris out of the pond. This was my first pond roughly 30 years ago, it was successful, but man it was pita.

Mechanical filtration is No more of a solution to and algae problem than plants are. If the pond is out of balance and not set up correctly no amount of plants will solve it. But the same can be said for mechanical filtration, at some point if you let the fish grow and reproduce(your example) with out removing some fish no amount of mechanical filtration or plants will keep the pond in balance. For most these things work hand in hand.

I see you keep saying fish are fish and water is water, etc. That is a vast oversimplification of things and is a recipe for disaster for individuals that are new to fish keeping in any form. Fish are not just fish there is a huge difference between keeping a bunch of 6” goldfish and a 6” koi, because in a year or so the koi may very well be 2’ long, while the 6” goldfish is maybe 10” most likely it is only marginally bigger. You don’t know how many times people come on here asking for help, my pond has been doing great for the first few years or whatever, all of the sudden I have excess algae, fish are dying etc. 9 times out of ten it is a small pond a couple thousand gallons or less and has way too much koi and goldfish in it. They stocked their pond with a bunch of small koi and goldfish initially and even without any reproduction, they did not take into account the adult size of the fish.

Even in the reef Keeping world individuals have to know which fish are compatible with coral and inverts, which ones are overly aggressive, how big they get, how much swimming space they need, how much waste they produce.

I know that you know all this stuff off the top of your head, but most of the people that come on here for help don’t know how big koi get or how quickly they can get that big. They don’t understand how much circulation their pond should have, or even that they need to cycle their pond or why A new pond will turn green initially, as it finds its initial balance.

 

[Lisak1]

I read your comment as "if you're using plants to outperform algae growth, you have a problem in your pond". IF plants are working, there's no problem. My pond, without plants, would not function as planned and I'd no doubt have lots of algae. That's because it's designed to use plants as part of the ecosystem. IF you have a planted pond that's still filled with algae, THEN you have another problem - too many fish, too much food, too much decaying organic material, etc.

 

[Joejoe80]

I completely agree.
As far as me saying fish are fish. I’m talking at the basic level the very core of these animals. Most fish require The same thing. Good water, good filtration, lots of oxygen.

as far as the mechanical filtration.What Im saying. I sorry what I mean is.
What I’m asking. is it better to have it in Place and built into the pond. In stead of starting with just plants.
Cause as you stated. there is much Maintenance. Meaning I’m guessing removing debris leaves etc.
So then as most people do. shit how can I get rid of all these leaves,and stuff floating in my pond. i’m tired of doing all this cleaning. I know let me add some sort of floating skimmer or underwater sponge filter pump.

no where did I say you only need mechanical Filtration.
However what I am saying is that you do not need plants. This is a fact.

you need a well established bacteria population. Denitrifying bacteria. anaerobic bacteria. If your bacteria population is not big enough to handle your bio load. that is what creates the algae. plain and simple this is a fact. no matter how many plants you put in that pond. Plants help. mechanical filtration helps.

It is not until bacteria population is established that the nitrogen cycle is completed. However they cycle never stops it balances.
when the cycle is complete your system is in balance.
When talking about a balance system that means the bacteria population is equal to the bioload of that system. This is fact.

it is only when the bioload becomes too great for the bacteria population that a system becomes out of balance.

Now when we say bioload we’re not just talking about fish, fish waste and food. we’re talking about, leaves, sticks, anything else that might fall into the pond and start to break down over time in the water.
without the bacteria there is no nitrogen cycle. it is not the plants.
Plants do absorb some ammonia and other nutrients , and export them. But that’s it.
they are not taking the ammonia and processing it into nitrite. It’s the bacteria.

They absorb nitrite but do not process it into nitrate. It’s the bacteria.

this Processing of these Nutrients is the nitrogen cycle. which can only be processed or converted by bacteria.
Plants only absorb and export they do not process and convert these nutrients as part of the nitrogen cycle.
They convert it into food for themselves and then export it in the fashion of oxygen.

they do absorb nitrate.
However nitrate is not toxic unless it’s in high amounts.
this is we’re plants really help.
But this is where water changes come into affect.
But who wants to do water changes every week in a couple hundred to a few thousand gallon pond.

it is the bacteria that is in everything that is creating the nitrogen cycle.

you keep saying plants the plants. Plants have the bacteria in them. by putting the plant in the water You are now establishing a bacteria colonization believe it or not.
that bacteria popularizes and starts the nitrogen cycle. so yes you can have a pond with just plants.
but it’s the bacteria in Those plants that came from an established system that starts the Nitrogen cycle.

The plants do help export excess nutrients.
can you have a pond with just plants yes.
But either there’s gonna be so many plants you might as will not even have the pond. Or you’re only going to be able to have a very minimal amount of bioload.
remember we’re not just talking about fish when saying bioload we’re also talking about anything that goes into that water that breaks down overtime leaves sticks whatever.

it’s the bacteria that creates the nitrogen cycle not the plants. Plants can and will absorb nutrients, but they will not create the nitrogen cycle. Without bacteria there is no nitrogen cycle plain and simple this is a fact.

once the pond as you say it becomes over populated and fish overgrown they create more waste throwing the system out of balance.
This is because the bacteria can no longer keep up with the amount of bioload.
meaning the bacteria cannot create the nitrogen cycle fast enough.

Ammonia is caused by fish food, fish waste, leaves, sticks, Organic material and whatever else is breaking down in the water overtime.
it is the bacteria that processes the ammonia which then creates the nitrogen cycle. This is a fact.

and the only way to remedy that is to create a bigger population of bacteria. More bacteria can handle more bioload.
By adding those plants or whatever else you’re adding. Yes they will help absorb some nutrients . But you’re creating more surface area for bacteria to grow. Plants cannot create and make the nitrogen cycle only bacteria can do that. This is fact

this is where bio balls filter pads, sponges, lava rock, come in to place. the reason why these things are so great. is because they have an extreme amount of surface area in such a small place .therefore you can create a huge population of denitrifying bacteria in a small spot. same goes for all that media that you have inside your waterfall boxes, skimmer boxes. all that filter floss and whatever else you’re running. These are all areas for bacteria to grow. Your rocks, your gravel, plant roots. it’s all bacteria.

If somehow you can have a plant and a pond and have no bacteria which is impossible that would mean there is no way to start the nitrogen process

notice fist thing is The bacteria breaking down ammonia. Then more bacteria breaking down nitrite into nitrate.

Also notice how plants are last in the cycle and they only partially take up nutrients. They help but are not the source that keeps the system in balance.
It’s the bacteria.
So yes I will say you absolutely do not need plants in a pond.
But you absolutely do need a well-established biological filtration ie bacteria

and if you made it through all of this

IM NOT TRYING TO BE A JERK!!!!!!!
I apologize if I come off that way!!!!