First Pond Progress Thread

[HayFam2022]

Hi everyone!

Finally, today we were able to start moving some rocks into the pond!

It rained a bit throughout the week so we had about 8” of rain water to pump out yesterday.

To move our large boulders I need to rent an excavator, but I’d like to get all the rocks placed that can be done by hand or the mini tractor. Hopefully after getting these smaller rocks set I’ll know if I have enough rock to finish the job. Because I don’t want to figure out I need more rocks half way though the week of my rental.

Also, After about 6 hours of moving and placing rocks, I now realize how critical the pond shelves are.

We plan to use @GBBUDD suggestion and pull the liner back to bring in dirt to build up our shelves so they are flat and as deep as possible.

Unfortunately I won’t get another chance tomorrow work on the pond again until next weekend. But I wanted to start this thread to continue adding updates and pictures.

Also, if you notice any major issues, please don’t hesitate to let me know!

Enjoy your weekend

 

[GBBUDD]

YOUR OFF TO A GREAT START... Those tall walls that you have are going to be a challenge what's the plan there? I see the larger boulders behind your wife in the photo do you know about endless slings?
On the same note about those larger boulders i'm betting you had to fight with some of those with that little tractor. Your going to need a decent sized excavator to be able to set some of those . Make sure you get a excavator with a thumb. And just because a excavator can pick up a boulder when it is close to the excavator doesn't mean it can reach out with the boulder and do so without tipping over. Place your plow if the excavator has one to help with that fight but if your working off to the side experience is what you'll need. Keep the power low until your use to the machine. And i always preach keep everyone away from the machine when your lifting or swinging . once you get the boulder where you want it . then think about approaching , those boulders are big enough to cause trouble very quickly. pulling the sling out from under the boulders is tricky and a common place to rip the liner . With boulders too big to man handle TRY PLACING THE BIG BOYS ON SMALLER ROCKS on the ends or where ever your endless strap is not. This way you can slip the sling out without yanking it out from behind or underneath. a LARGE crow bar is indispensable as is some blocking.


Don't forget your going to have energetic youngins climbing all over that pond another reason for backfilling and installing gravel or concrete in the loose areas . Last thing you want is a foot getting stuck ,or a hand as it chases a crawdad. That size boulder is harder to pin someone under but when they are all locked in together they may become an issue.

 

[GBBUDD]

one trick i used with my 6 foot tall wall was the place the biggest boulders i had on the bottom but off the wall. i had an elevated footing to lean the boulder against that kept the back of the boulder away from the wall toward the top then slip in the smaller basket ball sized rocks behind the lip of the big rock thus locking it in place, fill any voids with gravel or concrete

 

[Jhn]

To add to @GBBUDD advice, if you fill in the voids some on those smaller rocks and be careful to place the flatter sides down, those will effectively extend the shelve area to set larger rocks on that first bottom row. You want to build up from the bottom with the larger more stable rocks if they are going to support an entire wall of rock. Just be careful you don’t want any pointy edges of the smaller rocks puncturing the liner with a big rock sitting on top. Then if there is space behind the big rock fill with gravel and it can act as bedding for another large rock to be set tilted up against the side, just make sure it is stable so it can’t move if climbed on, the bedding of gravel should help greatly with that.

Lastly save some of the really interesting looking large and small rocks for the top row that ends up out of the water. Save a variety ie big flat ones make great stable access points for people to get right up on the waters edge, leave gaps between the outer edge of the pond and some of the exposed top rocks, so the water goes around behind them. Leave gaps between the top edge rocks and fill with gravel to create planting pockets to soften the edge.

Create under water planting beds of gravel for plants to be planted directly into the gravel. Use dead wood in the pond as well….all of this will create a more natural looking pond. The only plants in my pond that are in pots are a few water lilies and an yellow flag iris all the rest are planted directly in gravel beds or just wedged in between rocks.

To add to the tips for safe excavator running for the inexperienced, when picking up heavy objects, do not reach out to set a rock perpendicular to the tracks, as was said do so ideally over the front blade. The excavator can handle alot more weight reaching out this way. If you must reach out perpendicular to the tracks keep the rock or whatever close to the ground as you extend out, this way if the excavator starts to tip the object will set down easily relieving the weight before the excavator itself can actually tip over.

 

[HayFam2022]

Thank you for the feedback!

How to rock the tall vertical sides is a safety concern for me. In the image below the purple lines are where we plan to pull the liner back to add more dirt to make the shelves flat to support the large rocks. At the purple line closest to the camera I plan make this the sitting area outside of the pond with flagstone or something similar.

Also in the image I have an orange line to show where I plan to place 4 larger rocks I placed in the pond today with my tractor. I only had about an hour of daylight but I realized why larger boulders we’re making me so unstable yesterday—I had my 3-point hitch on the tractor. So today I put the bush hog back on and that helped move my center-of-gravity WAY back so I was riding stable.

Here is a picture of the 4 larger rocks, I still need to move 3 of them into position.

I don’t have a clear plan yet for the large rocks on the vertical sides. However my main priority is safety.

I have 4 yards of gravel on hand, so hopefully setting them each in a bed of gravel does the truck.

I do wish I had some large boulders with very flat edges

 

[GBBUDD]

It maybe necessary to go and hand pick a load for those spots the risks are not worth gambling on. looks like you were able to move one of those that appears to be 4 feet long by it's self. if that is placed out a foot from vertical at the wall and leaning back a foot should make it to where to kid will be able to topple that boulder over on them selves. Mind you i am not an expert on this it's just an opinion. making that depression under the liner for the boulders to sit in can help tremendously as well if you can place gravel along it's base that is inches deep and not just a dusting.

An other option is like what @combatwombat has been building he built a concrete retaining wall that are so popular today inside his pond . The major advantages there are safety and space as they will only take up a foot of that area instead of 3 or 4 feet with large boulders leaning back

 

[combatwombat]

Re: block wall. Turned out great for me. Allowed me a lot of height without the bulk of large boulders crowding the deep end as my pond is a bit narrow. I placed mine where it would not be visible from most viewing angles.

@jhn’s advice is good on the excavator. Believe he operates one professionally. Anothe tip from one excavator newb to another: Always know where your stabilizer/blade is. That is “forward.” Forgot that once while I had the cab turned around and almost drove the thing into the pond.

If you need to stack boulders to get your height, don’t try to go straight up. Set your lower rock away from the wall and backfill behind it with gravel. You can set much larger rocks more stable your second course that way.

Good luck!

 

[HayFam2022]

@GBBUDD and @combatwombat thank you for the insights.

After some further thought, here is my current thinking, focusing the proposed solution on the tallest vertical wall in my pond (giant hole).

Here is a shot of that wall showing the current distance between the wall and small rocks set yesterday. I do plan to pull back liner and build-up/level the next shelf.

Here is my 4-foot level on the current smaller rocks at the bottom to give scale, and distance to the top of the pond.

Here are two large boulders (more available) that could be used on this wall. I can build up the shelf with dirt from behind and gravel from inside the liner to bring this giant wall boulder to a height so part of it is poking up above my water line.

#1

#2

Here is a quick sketch, I think this layout is using the edging technique that was recommended for breaking up the edge of the pond.

I’m confident that these giant boulders wouldn’t move once they are placed in snuggly. If I had any concern after they’re in place I could always use concrete in place of some of my gravel behind the giant boulder, right?

I plan to change the bottom row of rocks based on the shelf height needed for the large boulder.

I’m looking forward to your thoughts on this idea, thanks everyone!

 

[combatwombat]

Having that rock sticking up out of the water like a little island will be nice. As for how to achieve it... I would go all inside the liner w/ gravel for that one. When you build a shelf outside the liner with native soil from your excavation, you're going to get settling. You have to wet and tamp it in very well to minimize that so that your liner doesn't get pinched/tugged as the backfilled dirt settles. With a really big boulder like that, I don't think I'd want that sitting on freshly dug soil.

 

[HayFam2022]

@combatwombat that is excellent advice about the excavated soil, I hadn't considered that. I will definitely take your advice here.

Thank you!

 

[GBBUDD]

While i am a huge fan of rocks surrounded by water standing up a 6 foot boulder has concerns but i'm not there to see it's full shape but what you could do is place the sixfooter first then lock it in place by having an other large boulder on each side of it and over laping it a little thus holding it from falling into the pond and back fill the back side toward the rubber with sand from outside the liner and or round river rock gravel inside. then if the existing shelf is still taller then some of the boulders you can always dig it down. having un even and varying widths is key to naturalizing the pond in my eyes.

Another note is when you do have disturbed soils especially sand or loam when you transfer from horizontal to vertical you can and should leave a little extra material behind so that if anything does settle and it will there's material to be pulled thats not doing anything but waiting for the settling and not stretching the material

 

[HayFam2022]

Thank you for your feedback @GBBUDD

The idea of digging down the shelf after the large boulder is set makes sense.

And I thought deciding on a pump or intake vs negative edge was difficult. This is much more challenging now that I am ‘in the arena.’

I’m going to continue moving the largest rocks possible with my mini tractor and then rent a large excavator. I just looked up quotes for this

…I actually bought the mini tractor three weeks ago to “move all the big rocks for the pond” is how I sold my wife on the idea.

One more thought on the large boulders…to ensure stability and peace of mind, I could always place the largest boulders (4ft tall max) at the lowest level of my pond.

Then, as suggested I could stabilize them with large boulders to lock them in and backfilling with gravel behind them.

However, after all of this if I didn’t feel they were secure enough, could I simply add a very large amount of gravel to the bottom of the deep in of my pond—6” or 8” or 12 if needed—to bury the bottom 1/8 to 1/4 of the boulders?

While I would lose a lot of depth, I think it would solve the problem. Maybe?

I don’t think it’s the brightest idea, but if I could start over I probably would have shallowed the deep end to make more stable shelves…

I guess I’m just spit-balling ideas in case I get stuck with a problem at the end.

Something like this:

 

[GBBUDD]

Thank you for your feedback @GBBUDD

One more thought on the large boulders…to ensure stability and peace of mind, I could always place the largest boulders (4ft tall max) at the lowest level of my pond. ..... Your lower level has mostly basket ball sized rocks if you replace the ones at the bottom just below the big boys will be placed and be mindful of how the pressures will push on them you can leave the lower level as a foot tall plus or minus giving you the extra height your looking for . placing gravel behind the first layer to make the shelf and let the biggin sit in the gravel bed can work but again without looking at all sides of the rock its impossible to say.,. and as i mentioned before place the boulders leaning back into the wall that way they can't get anyone in trouble underwater with boulders shifting. and when you do put them on a angle if it is a good enough angle that there's no way they will topple you could place a boulder behind the big one creating a space keeping the top of the big boulder off the wall and then slip in a smaller rock behind it locking it behind the big boulder and finishing off the height needed but making for a very sturdy stack. if your not sure what i mean ask and i'll make a poor drawing for you

Then, as suggested I could stabilize them with large boulders to lock them in and backfilling with gravel behind them.

However, after all of this if I didn’t feel they were secure enough, could I simply add a very large amount of gravel to the bottom of the deep in of my pond—6” or 8” or 12 if needed—to bury the bottom 1/8 to 1/4 of the boulders? i wouldn't rely on that much gravel there are ways to keep them from slipping without a foot of gravel etc

While I would lose a lot of depth, I think it would solve the problem. Maybe? it would be not my first choice i did a build out behind the big boulder in the blog or showcase maybe theres a little more info there i can't remember

I don’t think it’s the brightest idea, but if I could start over I probably would have shallowed the deep end to make more stable shelves…

I guess I’m just spit-balling ideas in case I get stuck with a problem at the end. it's a bit of work but i think you have the right tools you just need to set one and learn from that and move to the next. pulling the liner back and backfilling behind the rocks the rocks will make your shelves and as long as you keep the shelves below the rocks a couple inches then your rocks will also hold the gravel in place. This natural pond is all about patience letting mother nature take foot and do her thing building the pond is a good start to that patience. but byes you took on a biggin . id say its not to late to do a bald liner rock only the edges but it pretty much is, you would have to slope the soils with a gradual pitch and then do a very hefty bond beam around the edges and just place rock around the pond on that is that less work maybe but it's try to making a bond beam strong and secure enough to hold the weight of those big boys

 

[HayFam2022]

Hi everyone!

Whew it’s been a long day of working in the rain and mud but it was fun and we got a lot done.

Large excavators (11,000lb) with a forked bucket and thumb are very hard rentals to find but I’ve found all 3 components to be critical for moving boulders.

After a week of madness with cancelled reservations, the wrong machine being dumped on my property, trying to settle for an undersized unit with a smooth bucket (complete waste of time), then hitting the excavator lottery when an 18,000lb unit(!!) became available…but when the delivery driver knocked on my door he just wanted to let me know he hit a tree limb on my street and shattered the window and needed to take the machine back for repairs

After a lot of begging and and waiting they finally agreed to let me use it!!!

Whew!! This thing is a BEAST

We worked for about 2 hours last night and got in another 8 hours today.

I have this machine until next Friday so it will be a fun week ahead. Just in case, I ordered another 30 tons of 2-4’ boulders. I definitely don’t want to be out of rock while renting this machine.

I’m sure I’ll add some more details later, getting the boys to bed now. Here are some progress pics over the last few days

 

[GBBUDD]

Some one's having fun, careful with those big boys they can tip you over in the drop of a hat try to always reach out over the blade and blade is set down.
They can tear the liner very easily even with fabric just by the weight and a pinch as you set the boulder. but i also see a sling so your on the right track. i want to help .