Friend has a Sick Koi

[Priscilla]

Hi All,

PH 8/8.5
Ammonia - undetectable

My friend with a 8yo pond just called me today with the terrible news her biggest koi is not doing well. About two weeks ago when I was at her house I saw the smaller fish picking at this koi, almost like they were eating something off the large koi.

Yesterday the koi seemed sluggish and wasn't moving much. This morning he was gasping at the waterfall and seems to be missing a few scales - almost like white patches that are sunken in a bit - like a scar. She is trying to get a picture of the 'missing scales'. He is resting on the bottom a lot and at times seems to roll to one side but then he will right himself or one of the other fish will right him. Its kind of sweet that the other older koi are all laying next to him, head to head, almost like they sense something is wrong and are comforting him. everyone else in the pond seems fine.

I don't think she has changed anything major in the pond recently that would cause this.

Does anyone have any thoughts right off?

 

[callingcolleen1]

Not too sure, but maybe the missing scales are due to injury of some sort. Maybe the other fish chased her too much and she may have knocked off the scales on a rock, which led to fungus.
She may also have got "Ich" and iched herself like mad due to some parasite or something. I can't really offer much help, cause I have not had that problem for well over 22 years. The first year I had a pond, back in 1991, the fish went threw something similar and scratched themselves like mad, but back then the pond was very new and not balanced. Back then too my trees were very small so not much shade and it also was a very hot summer too, and then the ponds were much smaller as well. I think a lot of my success is due to the water temperture being much cooler up here in Canada. Fish tend to get sick when water is too warm....

 

[Priscilla]

Hmmm, water too warm ...... that's not good news for us down here! My pond is fully shaded in the morning and afternoon, but the hottest part of the day its fully exposed. I do have water lilies and hyacinths floating, so I guess they can shade under that. But the water does get pretty warm.

 

[Dave 54]

Priscilla koi can take quite high temperatures so I doubt its too warm , please ask your friend if she has just bought any new koi , I remember you saying that the shop that sells them had some problems .
If this is the case it may well be parasites but until we get a photo we cant tell.
Tell me a bit about your friends pond, is the bottom clear of debris and detritus , when did your friend last do a water change or clean her filter try to remember as much as you can it may well be important.
It may be the big koi is a female and is a little beat up after the joys of mating , it may mean she has too many male koi and she's plumb exusted by them, if so put her into QT for a while
There is one other thing that I know can start with high temperatures but I doubt its that however by slim chance it is then I feel sorry for her but like I said I doubt it.
Take photos of the damage I also want clear shots of both eyes and the head please .

Dave

 

[Priscilla]

The koi died this morning. She said he/she had a cut on its tail.

 

[Dave 54]

The koi died this morning. She said he/she had a cut on its tail.

Did you or she take any photo's of the koi, like I asked you too Priscilla I wanted to test a hunch we have about what could have been wrong with that koi ?

Dave

 

[Priscilla]

She did, she's supposed to send it to me, but hasn't yet. I will post it when I get it.

 

[Waterbug]

Sounded like it was spawning. The season is right for the northern hemisphere. The males bump and push the female to get her into the weeds so she'll spawn. The female is generally the larger fish. Several males will gang up to do this. Males even develop bumps on their head and pec fins, like sandpaper, to better grip the female. In a pond with spawning mats or lots of plants this all goes pretty well. In a pond without this cover the female may not be triggered to dump eggs and the males will just beat her to death. She'll have no where to hide. Commonly scales are torn off and skin skin gets raw and infection sets in and they're done.

I don't know how many fish are in this pond, but there could be other females getting ready to spawn, so if there isn't much plant cover the owner could think about spawning mats. They can be made. Otherwise the process can repeat.

 

[Priscilla]

Here are the pictures she sent me. She has added new fish to her pond without quarantining them. About two weeks ago I saw some goldfish pecking at this fish.

 

[Waterbug]

Hard to say. The missing scales in the back are more what would be expected with spawning problems. The missing scales on the side closer to the front less so, but possible.

The missing scales look fresh, no obvious sign of infection. That would fit being beating to death.

Cutting the fish open to see if there are eggs would be another clue, but she may have dumped them.

The biggest clue would be a picture of the pond. No plants, no spawning mats, spawning issue would be my guess. Once a person sees spawning behavior a couple of times it's really easy to spot.

 

[Priscilla]

WB, you are correct, there are no plants besides from one large potted plant with no roots or leaves in the pond (papyrus).

The fish is already buried.

 

[Dave 54]

Spawning may well have been the issue here but I suspect that this fish had problems when it first arrived I remember you saying that the fish shop had problems with the shipment they had to your island both Parasitic and bacterial and as such Priscilla this may well have been one that slipped through the net so to speak, it's either that or the problem was already in the pond and the koi got it from there.
Damage wise this could well be consistant with bad netting i;e someone who hasnt yet mastered the art of catching koi without them doing damage to the scalation of the koi as much as spawning .
As we all know koi are very powerful fish and like all fish they prefare not to be in the net it could well have resulted in scales being taken off when the fish hits the rim of the net.
You can see a small triangle of missing flesh on the head, this points to that, especially if the only net that person has is the wrong size for that koi.
Koi can and do rip through the more fleshy parts of the body ripping the top layer of skin you look at the point then go backwards so the head came down on something and damaged that layer of skin.
If say that was damage caused by the koi hitting the top or side of the pond it would have been rougher and thus ripped a fare bit more flesh as it fell back down
So it could have been a whole bunch of things, had like waterbug said you could have done an autopsy on your koi it would have answered a number of things i;e if the koi had eggs, which adds weight to the spawning explination.
Or had it had some sort of internal bacterial infection of which there are ways of tellng under the microscope .
Val and I always do autopsys on our own koi should any die and have also autopsied friends koi before on a number of occaisions
The colour of the koi also makes it hard if not impossible to tell if the koi was at that time showing signes of stress through any such infection
Sadly its one you and your friend will have to put down to experiance whilst your growing in experiance yourselves


Dave .

 

[Waterbug]

I would expect if the fish had been roughly handed a week, two weeks, previously, rough enough to cause death later, that the death would be caused by bacteria infection in the wounds. Bacteria infection in wounds that get bad enough to cause death would normally be very apparent, they look very much like rotting flesh on zombies. The scale loss looked pretty fresh to me. But hard to tell from pictures.

Anyways, maybe the more important thing is possible ways to improve the situation. If this were parasites, bacteria, virus the fixes are a little complex. It doesn't sound to me like this owner wants to do all that. True for virtually all pond owners so not judging. Trying to talk them into going down that path could make things worst by tossing cure after cure at the fish without understanding anything except what the last thing someone told them to throw into their pond.

That leaves the simple, safe and cheap fixes that may help. Spawning mats can be made from yarn, cotton mop head or purchased. So pretty easy and fairly safe for fish. If this death was caused by spawning it can stop more deaths. In ponds where this is a problem it generally repeats every few days for a couple of weeks. Some females will pull thru, but many can die. I don't even want to say how I first learned this. Of course that's a different kind of cure, once the pond only has males the deaths will stop.

The next easiest is improving water quality. But that's a pretty big leap the owner probably doesn't want to do. Most people don't want to do that much.

 

[Priscilla]

Thanks guys. Unfortunately there is no one to call to scrap and exam the fish or do an autopsy. She tried to get the pet store guys to come out and have a look but they said they wouldn't do a home visit on a Saturday - Monday to Friday only. So they gave her some 'medicine' to treat for parasites and sent her home. She bought a pool to treat the fish in but he died before she could treat him.

I do think she does need some spawning areas in her pond. Its so strange that its so rough.

WB - what do you mean improve water quality? She and I are both interested in doing what we can for the fish, within financial reason. We love this hobby but we face considerable restraints living on an island that is 12 miles long and 8 miles wide - there's not a lot here.

 

[Waterbug]

I wrote a long post about water quality but think I should just put it in a web page because I get asked that lot and it's a lot of typing each time. I'll post a link when it's ready.