Goldfish with large bumps


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Hoping someone will be able to help me figure out what this goldfish has on it's sides. It has been there for close to a year, seems to be getting larger, though. No other fish have bumps, not even little ones. But the fact these are getting larger, almost look like blisters now, wondering what it could be. The fish eats vigorously, swims normally, seems very active and nothing out of the ordinary ... except for the bumps.
Fish with bumps.JPG Fish with bumps 2.JPG Fish with bumps 3.JPG Fish with bumps 4.JPG
As a side note, or maybe front and center, I have been having problems with fish dying in this pond since first week of August. After 3 large water changes, the deaths have dwindled to about one fish every 10-14 days, but that's not perfect, obviously. I had 3 koi in this pond, otherwise all goldfish. I added fantails without quarantining them this summer, very likely brought in a disease. Other possible issue was corn fields that surround my 6 acres were sprayed with a fungicide 2 days before fish started dying, and in the beginning they were dying 2-4 a day! After water changes, that pretty much stopped, so pretty sure the fungicide (sprayed by plane) drifted and caused some type of problem with the fish. The strange part is that only goldfish were dying, the koi were fine. I did end up losing one of the 3 koi about 40 days after the initial deaths started. However, the koi pond, which is 20' from the goldfish pond and has only koi in it, has had no sick fish, no deaths whatsoever. That part leads me to think the fungicide. There is a chemical that is deadly to goldfish (Super Verm), but perfectly safe for treating koi. I've tried to research the chemical used on the fields (BASF Headline Amp) but not found the exact chemical used.
Any help or suggestions anyone can give will be greatly appreciated. My koi pond is 2 years old (built in 2011) and goldfish pond was built last year (2012). Have not lost any koi (except one that jumped out first day in the pond first year) or goldfish, until this issue first week of August.
Oh, and no chemical was able to wash into the pond, both ponds are at minimum 4" above grade level, and koi pond does not share water with the goldfish pond.
 
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My guess is Carp Pox, but closer exam would be needed. Normally the blisters reduce in warmer water and come back when water cools. That doesn't mean they always reduce in warm water, just normally.

If these haven't changed too much over the past year and are kind of hard to the touch I would then guess tumor. Guessing tumor isn't really saying anything, just a mass of tissue, so not really any help. Could be a generic problem or some virus other than the one that causes Carp Pox. Carp Pox is just the most common by far, but I have to assume there are other viruses around.

For the general problem of fish dying I always start with how the water tests. Ammonia, nitrite, KH, temp, GH, nitrate ordered most to least important to me. Then a history of how the pond is kept. Age, how it is cleaned, number and kind of fish, how much food is fed, that kind of thing. Never know what what little thing can be causing problems. Often it's several things.

I do hear people often suspect external things like the area being sprayed with something. Certainly possible. But normally that produces massive or complete loss of fish within an hour or so. It would be difficult to get just enough toxins to kill a fish or two and the rest be OK. And then more fish slowly dying over a long period wouldn't make me think toxin. Just playing the percentages the main suspect always has be water quality.
 
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Very good points, WB, thanks for chiming in. I had posted the issues in early August when this started, and I was doing water tests. I went as far as buying new water test kit, since someone said they were only good for a year, and my kit was 2 years old. The numbers were:
8/4/13 8/5/13 8/6/13
Ammonia - 0 0 0
Nitrite - 0 0 0
KH - 286.4 266.5 358
GH - 501.2 447.5 483.3
temp - didn't check it
nitrate - 5 ppm 0-5 ppm 5 ppm

I did 3 large water changes after this time period, draining water out the first time about 30%, refilling with well water. BTW, the KH/GH numbers are consistent with my well water, which has always been too high for my tropical fish in aquarium in house. The next 2 water changes were also large amounts, done 3 days apart. The weather at this time was lower than normal, around 80 for high and 65 for lows. It was not in the 90's and really hot until mid September.

When I feed fish, both koi and goldfish, I feed a total of about 4 oz, probably 2/3 of that to the koi, the other 1/3 to the goldfish. I take out a small container which holds 8 oz, and it lasts me two days. I feed one time a day, only what they totally clean up. It's floating food, been feeding the same food all year, so no changes there.

The goldfish pond was dug last year I think in about April. (Koi pond was dug in 2011.) The goldfish pond has a skimmer that pumps to the top of the stream, which runs about 25' back to the GF pond. There are plants in the stream, mainly parrots feather. Then there is a 4200 gph pump that is on a milk crate on the bottom of the pond that pumps into the large bog (17'x7'x18" deep), which is full of water clover, water parsley, and penny wart. There are also cattails and a few other plants. All plants were in the pond last year, although this year they really took of and took over the bog, which is full of plants. There were plants hanging over into the pond, which I trimmed back after this issue, keeping them from growing into the pond after that, wondering if they were causing any problem. That was a change from last year. Otherwise, all aspects are the same.

I had too many fish, probably 50 total, in 2750 gallons of water. The water itself is always crystal clear, and the water tests have always been very good. Have never found ammonia and nitrite to be higher than .5. There are now maybe 30 fish. I had added some fantails this spring and summer, did not quarantine them, so realize this could also be a possible problem, bringing in a disease to the pond. I've learned that lesson, even if that isn't what the issue will end up being. Never put fish in without QT them first. The goldfish that are in the pond are anywhere now from 3" to 8" long. There are also 3 koi in there, thinking I was going to try to rehome them, but never did. One of the 3 koi died about 3 weeks ago. Didn't seem sick or not eating, just was dead, could not see anything that caused it's death. I have not seen all the fish dead, so wondering if something has eaten them either before or after they died. I know there are some fish missing that I never found dead.

The spraying happened while I was gone on vacation, couple of days before I got home. Went out early morning after getting home in middle of the night, and found 4 or 5 fish front and center, floating. The kids that feed are VERY responsible, they are farm kids, so no way did they have any chemicals on themselves or hands or anything, so have already removed any possibility of them being responsible. They have hogs, and they don't even go into the hog barn without plastic booties on their shoes! Anyhow, all was normal through Sat. a.m. when they fed, and I checked Sun. a.m. and fish were dead. None of the fish that I netted out after dead looked injured or had any red spots or cuts or anything I could notice. That being said, I've noticed when fish get "sickly", as they swim slower, quit eating, and top fins are flat on their spine. They just look sad. Here are some pics of a fish that was sick last week. Pretty sure it has died, although have not found it. I realize on closer inspection, since I was able to catch this one, that there is a dark spot on the right gill. I've not been able to catch the knobby fish for closer inspection. I've been trying for about a week now.
another top view.JPG Other side.JPG Sick fish side view.JPG top view.JPG
If you can think of anything else to ask, please do. I wrote down lots of info when it happened, mainly water test numbers.
 
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When I read the description I expected carp pox, but the pics look more like tumors to me. They may well be harmless, just unattractive.

It's hard to tell if the problem is disease, parasites, or toxins. I would be concerned about the missing fish. Dead fish decomposing in your pond could both foul the water and release pathogens.
 
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Yep, I don't like the idea of dead fish "disappearing" either, but I look each and every morning, move lily pads to see if the fish are underneath then, find nothing. Maybe a bird or something else is eating them, is what I'm wondering. Another ponder mentioned that maybe crows or a heron has come by. I've seen herons in my area, have a farm pond that is VERY heron friendly (shallow edges ... shallow pond for that matter!), and just the other day heard a small group of crows in the tree behind my house. Usually I don't hear or see many birds where I live, too far out in the middle of fields, no cover or many trees within a mile for them to land in, except the few on my 6 acres.
 
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Mmathis

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CE, I had a few fish with mysterious "lumps," though they didn't look quite the same as yours (but similar enough to mention it). Turned out they were caused by a parasite -- yellow grub, a trematode -- that was burrowed under the skin. Interesting life cycle: starts in the Ramshorn snail, goes to the fish, then to birds that eat fish (herons), then back to the water and the snails. When I was able to catch the fish (1 goldfish and 2 or 3 Rosy Reds), I gently poked the "lump" with a small needle (insulin syringe), and the "grub" popped out. The fish stayed in QT for a while and I treated the spots, which healed quickly.

Not saying that's what's going on with yours (first set of pics) -- my fish never acted sick.

image.jpg
Goldfish (poor pic)

image.jpg image.jpg
2 views of one of the RR's

Since then I've attempted to get rid of the Ramshorn snails!
 
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Hmmm ... interesting, MM. I have trapdoor snails in both ponds, put them in last year. Probably put at least 25 in there, and have found probably at least 10 or 15 empty shells, so thinking I don't have very many left. I do see them every now and then, though. They are winter hardy, so they survive the winters.
Another thing I did this year was put a plecostomus in there.... again. It is a regular tropical one and the pet store guy is very informative, he told me that as long as the fish was introduced in warm weather and had a chance to slowly get used to the cold weather, it would survive the winter. I've not seen it since I put it in there. Not saying it's not in there, won't know until all plants are dead and can see the bottom, but figure it probably already died, too. Just yet another fish I added this summer without QTing them. :frown:
 

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CountryEscape said:
.
Another thing I did this year was put a plecostomus in there.... again. It is a regular tropical one and the pet store guy is very informative, he told me that as long as the fish was introduced in warm weather and had a chance to slowly get used to the cold weather, it would survive the winter.
Funny what pet store guys will say to make a sale! Last time I looked, Illinois was still pretty far north. Hope he gave you a written guarantee!
John
 
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Naw, no guarantee, and I told him I didn't believe him for one minute! It was a small one, I think maybe $2 is all. It was the type that grows fast, but I still don't think it would survive the winter. At this point, it could easily have died along with the other goldfish. I mentioned it as it was yet another fish that was added without quarantining it. But, now that I'm reading more about the possible diseases, it seems like some of them take 3-6 months to show up, including some possibilities of the bumps on this goldfish. So, how long does a person have to quarantine a fish anyhow? I think I'll just never add any more fish. At this point, I'll be draining a totally "dead" pond by springtime. I'm so totally disgusted with myself at this point. Not being serious enough about their safety, when I put them in there, even though sooo many of you warned me about quarantining. Learning as I go, but so sad I did it at the expense of so many of their lives. :banghead3:
 

Mmathis

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CountryEscape said:
Hmmm ... interesting, MM. I have trapdoor snails in both ponds, put them in last year. Probably put at least 25 in there, and have found probably at least 10 or 15 empty shells, so thinking I don't have very many left. I do see them every now and then, though. They are winter hardy, so they survive the winters.
Not sure about Trapdoor snails. I did as much research as I could, and all I could find pointed just to the Ramshorn snail as an intermediate host. So, I've been culling the RH's as well as those teeny little pond snails. I'm leaving the TD's alone. And those few fish were the only ones that had the "lumps."

That experience totally freaked me -- and proves just how fragile [and interconnected] our pond environment can be! And there are just some things we can't prepare for....

It's gonna get better! Don't give up!!!!
 
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Thats the problem isnt it its all guesswork until we pin down exactly what it is once you have this guy in QT then we can look into what is the cause of these lumps wb is correct as are turtle mommy and our goodselves over many hours of emails we are infact all saying the same thing.
It has to be one of the three things weve all talked about. I believe we lost the fish pox one straight away as it looks nothing like any fish pox weve ever seen plus as the pond temperature goes up in the spring fish pox usually disapears .
Tumour in all our years as fish keepers I have yet to come across a fish with more than one tumour normally you see then pushing out under the skin where the body cavity holds all the organs, the fish can live for many years with this type of tumour.No looking at these lumps these they seem to be on top which leaves two choices one trematode with the little yellow grub or the other Myxobolus or nodular disease.
Toxins dont disapear they stay in the mud at the bottom of the pond until disturbed .
As to QTing a fish we normally QT ours for 4 weeks before being certain that they have nothing amiss.

rgrds

Dave
 
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Country I have never QT'ed a fish and have not had issues. But I only added fish twice (that weren't from a local reputable koi farmer). Roll of the dice I guess.

I hope it all works out for you.
 
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Pecan I can only say so far you have been lucky keep it up an the odds against you getting something will one day catch up with you .

rgrds

Dave
 
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Hmm ... those tumors are on the top of that goldfish in the first link, and thanks for the video of the surgery procedure. I wish she would have shown the actual cutting off of the tumor. I am getting up the nerve to do this to my fish, first must get come clove oil, have the sedation tank, and the recovery tank, which will house the fish after "surgery" for at least a month, depending on what is found in the bumps. If it is something that is contagious, he will be euthanized.
Note: I just found a pic I had taken of this fish in April, with the bumps showing then. So, that was 6 months ago, see how they have changed since then.
Bumps on 8 inch Comet.JPG Bumps on Comet from side view.JPG
The bumps or tumors have definitely gotten larger in 6 months. As soon as I can catch this sucker, I will learn more about what is going on with the bumps.
 
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Dave 54 said:
Pecan I can only say so far you have been lucky keep it up an the odds against you getting something will one day catch up with you .

rgrds

Dave
I don't doubt it and after hearing some of these stories I think I will be more careful next time. Luckily I am removing fish and giving them to the pond shop and not adding any for the foreseeable future.
 
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CountryEscape said:
Hmm ... those tumors are on the top of that goldfish in the first link, and thanks for the video of the surgery procedure. I wish she would have shown the actual cutting off of the tumor. I am getting up the nerve to do this to my fish, first must get come clove oil, have the sedation tank, and the recovery tank, which will house the fish after "surgery" for at least a month, depending on what is found in the bumps. If it is something that is contagious, he will be euthanized.
Note: I just found a pic I had taken of this fish in April, with the bumps showing then. So, that was 6 months ago, see how they have changed since then.
Bumps on 8 inch Comet.JPG
Bumps on Comet from side view.JPG
The bumps or tumors have definitely gotten larger in 6 months. As soon as I can catch this sucker, I will learn more about what is going on with the bumps.
I used clove oil to put a fish with dropsey out of his misery. Works well for sedation and euthanasia. Good luck CE.
 
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Well watching through that video I'm sorry but she had half of that wrong for starters no offense intended and only have her say so that these are tumours .

First off you must put together a dedicated first aid kit for any possiblility you may have to treat, there was little to be seen on the table :-

https://www.gardenpondforum.com/topic/10984-make-a-complete-first-aid-kit-for-koi-and-goldfish/

One of the top koi authors acctually recomends five seperate kits

There are proceedures to go through when using anesthetic on a fish all include checking just how far the fish is under from light sedation right the way down through to heavy sedation where you can proceed in what you wish to do:-

https://www.gardenpondforum.com/topic/10493-anethatizing-you-koi-goldfish-the-various-stages-of/


Cotton buds have a large supply on hand because it requires more than one bud to clean the wound, you never use both ends they are removed from the operatiing area directly after being used.
We were not made aware of possible fish to human cross infection like TB and others :-

https://www.gardenpondforum.com/topic/10992-zoonosis-its-effects-on-us-humans/

"As such precautions should be used".

There was no baby changing mat a great thing that we koi keepers use to treat our fish on :D nor wet towel which you cover all but the wound site that you are working on .
I saw no saline solution used in washing out the the site, which is something we always use.
No toothbrush to gently scrub down to clean tissue after the dead tissue is cut away, on this fish the dead tissue was left on which may cause problems later on in its recovery.
There was nothing to cauterise the wound with and I only saw what looked like iodine on the table yet there appeared to be non on the wound site.
We always use propolis at the end of a minor operation its natures way of keeping things clean.
She admits that the so called tumour will grow back again my question here is why put this poor fish through what she has done, a vet would have removed all infected tissue so what indeed was the point of this operation.
If it was an explority type of operation thats fine but to attempt something on this scale no sorry... besides there is a whole different setup for this including a a fish tank, sponge with an area cut out to gently hold the fish, a pump and a good length of air pipe
The sponge is set at an angle to the tank which holds it in place in place a fish tank in which the large sponge sits above the anesthetic.
This has mesured out and mixed into the water bellow the sponge.
A small pump is placed below the sponge to pump the anesthetic via a pipe to the fishes mouth where the anesthetic is allowed to wash over the fishes gills to keep it asleep for the duration of the operation the water then perculates back through the sponge to be pumped back up again across the gills and so on etc etc till the operation is completed and the fish is placed in recovery. I only know this way of doing thing's in theory and have never used it before.

rgrds

Dave
 
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Oh I forgot dont pinch the baby changing matt :nono: especially if you have a youngster using one..
Go buy one yourself they cost a pittance and you will only upset the good lady :bowdown: who must always be obeyed

rgrds

Dave :biggrinangelA:
 

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