Gordy's Bait Tank Filter Design Question

[Catfishnut]

Hi everyone,

I have a question for my filter construction. I am setting up a rather different system than an ordinary pond, but the concepts ought to be the same or highly similar.

I have described my filter design in the "INTRODUCTIONS" forum and posted pix in the "PHOTO" section, but if you haven't found them there, I will just make a brief summary here of my personaly filter design.

The drain line from my above ground tank (1,000 gallons) gravity feeds into the bottom of a 55 gallon sediment trap filter.
The water swirls around in the bottom 5-6 inches space of the sediment filter and hopefully drops the heavy and larger loads near the cleanout drain (to be expelled when needed through the flush valve). The water percolates upwards through a homemade, round, plastic disc with holes drilled in it. Just atop this is an aerator device made from 1/2 PVC tubing that I can use to "purge" the filter media above it if it gets too dirty and starts to clog.

The filter media in this sediment filter barrel will be layered rock and gravel and very course sand. Progressively finer as the water rise upwards. The outflow of this 55 gallon tank will feed into the bottom of the 55 gallon bio-converter tank.

The bio-converter tank has a soaker hose aerator that circulates about 2 cubic feet of Kaldnes K3 bio-media aggressively. The outlfow of this 55 gallon bio-converter tank drops down from the top to the bottom of the last tank, which is nothing more than a fine aerator and pump tank to return the water back to the pond.

On the trip back to the pond, there is one final filter device. It is a 4 foot long x 6" diameter, vertical PVC pipe or column. In this column, I was planning on using activated carbon media to clarify the water. However, I am now having second thoughts.

First of all, I just read a post regarding the use of Zeolite. I had planned to use this instead of the coarse sand in my sediment tank. However, the post by Koifishguy recommended that the zeolite NOT be placed upstream from the bio-converter as it would remove the ammonia and deprive the Nitrosomonas bacteria of their food source.

Therefore, rather than placing it there, I was wondering if I should place it in the final filter stage (the 6" column) and use the zeolite exclusively and drop the activated charcoal or carbon out of the picture.

I can get the activated carbon (granulated) from work for free, so that is why I desired this last filter stage design. However, the zeolite can be recycled easily with backflushing and the carbon is just a consumable (disposable) media.

I don't want to mix these two in the same tank or filter mechanism, because then I would have to separate them to save the zeolite and dispose of the carbon or toss them both out when the carbon's life has been exhausted.

I can redesign the last 55 gallon filter barrel in order to place the zeolite in there and still retain the carbon in the PVC column or I can eliminate the carbon entirely and use the zeolite in the PVC column alone. Then, I can merely backflush the zeolite or expel it from the tube and wash it with fresh water to rejuvenate it.

Currently, my design is set up to just disconnect the carbon filter PVC column, dump the carbon out in the garden area or wherever, and refill it with new carbon.

Keep in mind that I am doing something quite different than setting up just a standard "fish pond". I am raising bait fish and there are some unique parameters that I want to follow here to keep the bait tank clean and clear. The fish that I will be raising in this pnnd are definitely not as sensitive as Koi. My fish could live in just about any environment. so I am not too concerned about that. However, I am going to have a LOT of fish in this 1,000 gallon pond/tank, and I want to be able to see them to net them when needed. So, I desire 0 ammonia and nitrite levels and really high water clarity.

When I read the post from KoiGuy, I realized that there was an error in my thinking, because I was pondering placing the Zeolite in the sediment tank in place of the coarse sand. That would have been convenient for me, but then the bacteria in the bio-converter would be deprived of supper!

With what I have designed and constructed so far (refer to what I state above), what is everyone's reccommendations for this situation?

Keep in mind that I do not want to redesign the mechanical parts of this filter later, so I really want it to be good right off the bat. I can make changes now, easily. But, once done, its done. So, I need it to be as correct as possible now.

I may not even need the zeolite, I just thought it was a good option, maybe it is unnecessary? Take a look at my photos (Uncle Gordy's bait tank) and ponder it. Throw any advice my way that you can, I am open to all suggestions, ideas and theories! I think that I have a great design, but I may have to rethink a few of the details before I deem it a finished product. I definitely know that I better not place the Zeolite (if I use it at all) upstream from the bio-converter. I would be defeating the operation of the bacteria if I did. I shoud have had that thought in the back of my mind already, but I was gettin kinda gung-ho and impatient to finish the project.

I want to thank everyone who does reply here, even to those of you who just scratch your head and ponder the idea, I thank you, too!

Gordy

 

[addy1]

scratching and pondering...................

 

[Catfishnut]

scratching and pondering...................

Ha Ha Ha!

Thanks Addy! That comment really made me smile and laugh! It felt pretty good!

Gordy

 

[koiguy1969]

zeoliote must be soaked in a strong salt solution for rejuvenation...a good overnight soaking will have it performing again. but it does one thing well absorbs ammonias.

 

[minnowman]

The zeolite should'nt be necessary once the Kaldness filter material gets coated with bacteria. What will be your flow rate through the filter?

 

[HARO]

Gordy; the only way to tell if zeolite is needed would be to monitor your ammonia levels. Personally, I would go with the activated carbon ( to remove any tint from the water ) and replace it with zeolite only if testing shows that it's needed. :twocents: John

 

[Waterbug]

Where's the reverse osmosis?

The thinking on the ammonia and Nitrosomonas is a bit digital. Water coming out of a biofilter will still have ammonia. The bacteria can only remove a percentage of the ammonia, the more trips through the filter the lower the ammonia drops. So it wouldn't really matter where the Zeolite was located there wouldn't be much for the bacteria. I'm not sure why you would be concerned about bacteria if you're using Zeolite.

I don't know how long you plan to keep the bait fish alive...would they be able to handle the low mineral levels the Zeolite would provide? Wouldn't it also provide a very low pH level? I don't really know, but I'd be interested in the answer.

I don't know why you would think the 55 gal drum would collect debris. I'm sure you would get some, but hardly worth while. Even vortex filters have a hard time with this. But it doesn't hurt anything.

No UV? For clear water I don't think there is a more reliable choice.

No air diffuser? For keeping a lot of fish alive in a tight space this has to be the most useful tool.

 

[koiguy1969]

this is what i was told and what i did for my first pond.... and i still use zeolite for my fry tubs.
you locate the zeolite after the biofilter for the simple reason of giving the filter's bacterial colony first pick at the ammonias pumped thru and the zeolite can handle some of the excess. this isnt intended to be long term. its just to keep the levels down while the filter gets established. once the filters pulling its weight you can remove the zeolite. i did this successfully in a new 450 gal pond with 40 fish, 4" - 7". all fish were added within 3 weeks and never had a bad water test. theres no quarentee but it proved quite beneficial for me..but.. the zeolite wont grab all the ammonias unless your pumping a pretty slow flow thru it. i used it for a month. then stopped. i salt soaked it once a week. over night.. 1 cup salt in 1-2 gallons of water. i was given a 2 gal bucket of zeolite and split it in half, using about 1 gal at a time. 24 hours in the salt solution brings it back. and it didnt seem to effect my ph at all. twice a week water tests, all good.

 

[Catfishnut]

I guess the main notion for my wanting to use zeolite is that my neighbor said he could get it for me for free or virtually free. I thought that I might use it in the sediment filter instead of sand. So, it wasn't really for the ammonia reduction benefits that I pondered the thought.

I imagine the regeneration would be fairly easily carried out be soaking it overnight, say in a 10-15% salt solution and then backflushing/rinising it several times.

The water flow will be less than 950 gph. Not sure where it will be in the end, but I am using a pndmaster 9.5 Mag-drive pump. It seems to be too much for just the three barrels without the pond connected, but I don't have any restrictions on the outlet of the pump either (no carbon filter and no sediment filter to push the water through). After I add that into the mix, then I will adjust the outlet of the pump to cycle any overage water back into the filter tank at the end where the pump is (pump is in the last of the three fitler barrels).

Using the activated carbon was my original direction. For the purpose of clarifying the return water and removing some other contaminants. But, it would be nice to use both the carbon and the zeolite since they are readily accesible to me. Just one of those things, if you can get it for free, try to use it.

I think that my bait fish could handle really lousy water, even for an extended period of time (months). They are pretty tough fish (bullheads and bluegills).

As for the 55 gal barrel collecting debris, it works very well. I had used this in the past with my farm stock tanks to help clean the water. These fish are very dirty and my tanks sit out under the trees at the cabin all summer. Bugs, leaves, sticks and excrement from these fish really foul the water fast. I pumped the tank water into the bottom of the barrel and siphoned off the top water to return back to the tank. Lots of stuff collected at the bottom of the barrel. I never had a drain valve in one, though. I just shut it off, pumped the water down and flipped it over and sprayed it out with a hose. It was a thick, smelly mess! Lot's of gunk.

No, no UV. That's too much for this guy. It would be cool, but too expensive.

The air diffuser is in the filter barrels. It is the garden soaker hose with air pumped into it instead of water. Works great! If I find that I need more O2 in the pond tank, I have plenty of soaker hose to get the job done there. I will also use a bit of jet action at the water returns to the tank to add in some aeration.

Oh, I didn't think the fish would need reverse osmosis filtering, so I installed the RO filter on the line coming out of the tank going to the house water supply - for the kitchen faucet.








No! Just joking

Gordy

 

[Waterbug]

Glad you got my RO joke.

I think the only thing missing from your system is flexibility. You said this was a one time build deal. The first filter system I ever built was a 12' long, 2' wide, 1' deep sand filter, 3' off the ground. Days to design, days to build, about $150 in wood and sand, but it was all going to be worth it when I saw that crystal clear water flowing out the end. I turned it on and reality destroyed my fantasy world in about 10 minutes. That's how long it took for the sand to clog. I torn it down the next day. It was many months later, many filters later, that I started to understand just a tiny bit and even then there always seemed to be exceptions.

For me the best way (unfortunately it seems the only way) to learn is by doing, but that also means expecting some things to not work perfectly.

I do look forward to your results because you do have a different system designed. If I had a cheap source of zeolite I would totally use it just to see what happened.

 

[addy1]

Gordy I took your soaker hose idea, but used some 3/4 drip irrigation tubing with holes poked in it for my air ring. (summer stuff is gone from the stores here) Once the pond starts the freeze over I will be turning on the large air pump to keep a hole open. It does make a nice air stone.

 

[Catfishnut]

I have been looking up some specific information and details on the Zeolite that I can obtain. If anyone else is interested, it is from the Bear River Zeolite Company out of Preston, Idaho. There is a lot of really interesting information here on their site: http://www.bearriverzeolite.com/

Examples of some of the info follows.

The deposit is a very thick sedimentary deposit of zeolitized volcanic ash of Tertiary age known as the Salt Lake Formation. The sedimentary interval in which the clinoptilolite occurs is more than 1000 feet thick in the area. Thick intervals of the zeolite are separated by thin limestone beds deposited in the freshwater lake where the volcanic ash accumulated.

Algae Eater is used in mesh bags; and also as loose granular and larger “rocks”. Hang the mesh bag in the water or place the loose material in the water. Use 8 ounces per 10 gallons ( l pound per 20 gallons).

The Algae Eater will adsorb the nitrogen from the water, and the algae will begin to grow on the Algae Eater. When the water begins to turn green again, replace the Algae Eater. Alternatively, the Algae Eater can be regenerated by washing off the algae, soaking the Algae Eater in a 3% salt solution (5 tablespoons of salt per quart of water), and washing the Algae Eater under a steady flow of water for an hour.

I attached some pix of their example of sizes available (I think I would opt for the mid-range one from these pix - the (-4/+8 mesh).

I thought someone might be interested in just reading this and visiting their site. I think it is extremely interesting. Not to mention, they have a really swell website.

Gordy

 

[Catfishnut]

Gordy I took your soaker hose idea, but used some 3/4 drip irrigation tubing with holes poked in it for my air ring. (summer stuff is gone from the stores here) Once the pond starts the freeze over I will be turning on the large air pump to keep a hole open. It does make a nice air stone.

Addy,

Very cool! How does it work and look (how large are your aeration bubbles)?

I also noticed that everyone has removed these items from the shelves around here, too. I asked at our local Menards store and they said they had sold out all their soaker hose stock and wouldn't order more til spring. I found one roll left at WalMart. It was smaller diameter, but ended up working better than what I used before. The original roll I bought was 5/8" dia and this one from WallyWorld was 1/2" dia. I didn't want to buy it, but now am glad I did. With the 5/8" dia I had to use hose clamps to keep it on the barbed fittings that I had and keep it from bleeding air at the fitting. With the 1/2" hose, I didn't need the hose clamps at all. It was a pain getting the hose on the barb, but it seals tight and doesn't come off. I tried to remove a test fitting and had to cut it off because it fit so tight. I like this much better as I hated using the hose clamps.

Gordy

 

[addy1]

That is really interesting, thanks for doing the research. My bog is my algae eater, but if I had a different pond, I think I would try the stuff to see how it would do.

Addy,

Very cool! How does it work and look (how large are your aeration bubbles)?

I also noticed that everyone has removed these items from the shelves around here, too. I asked at our local Menards store and they said they had sold out all their soaker hose stock and wouldn't order more til spring. I found one roll left at WalMart. It was smaller diameter, but ended up working better than what I used before. The original roll I bought was 5/8" dia and this one from WallyWorld was 1/2" dia. I didn't want to buy it, but now am glad I did. With the 5/8" dia I had to use hose clamps to keep it on the barbed fittings that I had and keep it from bleeding air at the fitting. With the 1/2" hose, I didn't need the hose clamps at all. It was a pain getting the hose on the barb, but it seals tight and doesn't come off. I tried to remove a test fitting and had to cut it off because it fit so tight. I like this much better as I hated using the hose clamps.

Gordy

I will go out once we are warmer than 26 degrees, turn on the air pump and take a picture for you. I will pull the ring out of the pond get a pic of it and the air bubbles for you.

I used the irrigation hose to get the air out far enough to where I wanted to drop it into the pond, around 25 feet, then used a barbed T made for that line, to join the circle to that line. So no hose clamps needed. Worked great.

 

[Catfishnut]

Addy,

I forgot to add, I really love the bubbles that the soaker hose creates. They are not as fine as a stone would be, but they are better than all the trials I made using a 1/2" PVC tube and drilling holes in it. I tried drilling 1/16" holes in the PVC tubing and they seemed to be too large. Some of my design trials also ended up with either too many or too few drilled holes. They didn't work as I had wished and I had to start over several times.

One other disadvantage I found with the PVC was that it seemed that I had to keep the entire PVC aerator array perfectly level to utilize the whole array (to make all the holes bubble out). I think this was due to the holes being too large. My air pump has high volume, but very low pressure, so I don't think it can push the water out of the way to reach the furthest ends of my PVC tube array because the holes are too large and it loses too much pressure early in the PVC pipe array. It was fun trying, but I had the best luck with the soaker hose and it was actually a lot cheaper.

How did you "poke" the holes in your drip tubing?

Gordy