Has anyone found a plant that fish actually like to eat?

[hdavid44]

I am trying to minimize pond cleaning to reduce algae. I use UV, water is clear but some algae still forms.

I want to try adding some plants that will extract nutrients from the water and which the fish -- koi, comets, shrunken -- would like to eat.

So far the plants I have submerged in the pond seem to grow but the fish refuse to eat.

Unless they eat at night when no one is looking. Or they just eat the new shoots?

Does anyone know of water plants that fish actually like to eat?

Can I starve the fish for a bit to induce them to become vegetarians?

harry

 

[JohnHuff]

Duckweed.

 

[adavisus]

anacharis, water hyacinth. Yups, fish graze after dark. Yups they will graze more if there is no fish food

Regards, andy
http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l42/adavisus/
http://swglist.wordpress.com/

 

[bettasngoldfish]

Mine will eat duckweed and anacharis

 

[Waterbug]

Can I starve the fish for a bit to induce them to become vegetarians?

Absolutely. If you withhold all animal based food the fish would be vegetarians. There would be the occasional bug they could eat, but basically they'd be forced vegetarians.

 

[bettasngoldfish]

My goldfish also like the occasional slice of orange or zucchinni

 

[GreatDanesDad]

I am new to this so hopefully other people can validate my ideas (I only have ideas and limited experience, not knowlege), but for what you want, you may be missing a key thing. You want clear water with less cleaning. You dont have an agenda to go vegetarian do you?

Think about it like this. You use a UV and kill both algae and benificial bacteria. The fish eat, poop, and there is not enough good bacteria to dispose of the waste, so you end up with gunk to clean up, and unstable water that is subject to more algae blooms. Many would agree that with a UV system, your fish load (inch of fish per surface area of benifical bacteria substrate) must be much lower than a system without a UV.

There are many schools of thought on here and none is wrong if you get healthy water, however, here is my recomendation as something to try. I use to use a UV and my water would be so beautifully clear one day and a week later pea soup. It made me crazy, I hated it. So much work. The UV is a quick solution with long term issues in my opinion.

So think of this, Algae lives on the same nutrients in the water that plants do, and UV kills good bacteria that help your water find a homeostatis that limits Algae blooms. If you are making changes and adding plants, you may try removing the UV as well. Try it for a few weeks, if you have green water now anyway, what are you losing. I also have a minibog thread and I have seen a few others that are even a little better than mine. I did however make mine for $25.00 prior to pump purchase. If you add plants via pots or a bog and remove UV, your good bacteria will grow as fast or faster than the algae and your plants will utilize nutrients and help starve out the algae as well.

I also recomend the typical method of pumping water through a laundry basket or milk basket lined with quilt batting after you remove the UV. It will give you the quick clear water, without killing the good bacteria.

Here in the hot clear sky'd arizona, I can grow ornimental sweet potato plants in my pond and the fish love it. But remember your goal was clear healthy water, and less cleaning. Vegetarian fish still poop even if it is less, it still causes gunk and gives algae a source to bloom if you are limiting the amout of good bacteria with a UV.

Sorry if this is different than your subject, but I think it was what you are really looking for. Also remember in the wild fish would have many different kinds of roots to get all the nutrients to grow and be healthy. If you have many plants that are being eaten by the fish, you would be replacing plants often and thus you are just exchanging one chore for another. Remember most of us spend more time blocking our koi out of our plants because of the distruction and mess they cause. The problem is rarely that the fish ignore the plants.

Hopefully others will tell me if I am wrong, I would rather hear that you met your goals than you sucessfully converted your fish to vegetarians only to find that the vegetarians still cause water issues with your current set up. Sorry again for changing directions and rambling.

 

[Waterbug]

Think about it like this. You use a UV and kill both algae and benificial bacteria.

Where did you hear UV filters effect colonies of beneficial bacteria?

There's been millions of UV filters put into use going back many years. Total number of ponds with these filters that didn't have normal amounts of beneficial bacteria is zero. Nil. None. Zip. Study after study show there is no effect.

People who read forums for info...beware.

 

[capewind]

Bacteria can live on every surface of the pond area ... the only things affected by UV is anything in the water that actually passes through it.

Our fish seem to really enjoy my water cress plant ... mainly because I dont want them to eat it LOL

 

[GreatDanesDad]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultraviolet_germicidal_irradiation

Waterbug,

I am sorry if I am miss informed. I work in clean rooms that often utilize Ultraviolet Germicidal Irradiation on all surfaces of your clothing before entering the lab. That is my background, not someone elses forum. Call it an assumption of mine that some percentage of the benebacteria are suspended at any one time. If this is true, passing thru the UV filter would harm these bacteria and have an effect on the colonies of beneficial bacteria in a pond. (I admit that I dont not know what percentage of BB are floating/suspended)

I appoligize if it appeared that I was spewing information without any background. I have a humble understanding of many of these things and offer that disclaimer up before any statement. (Again, I only have ideas and limited experience, not knowlege).

However, I did a search on this and did not find study after study after study showing no effect of BeneBacteria. Infact the searches all came back saying if bacteria, good or bad, pass through the UV filter, their genetic material will be damaged.

I accept that there are many varibles, time, temperature, and fish load to name a few, however the only two known varibles I changed on my pond to finally stablize my water, clear and ~0 amonia were removing my UV and adding my 20 gallon bog.

Thank you for the feedback. Based on your comments, I will most likely add the UV back to my pond as a test condition. I know there are other health benefits to the UV such as killing pathogens.

However, I do still recomend looking at other causes of algae blooms and excess gunk rather than just fish diet. Would you agree WB?
Also if you have a link or two to your mentioned studies, I would love to see them. Not just for this subject, but I would like to know where else to acquire published remarks to many of our questions.

Honestly, due to your knowlege and location, I use your comments as guidance very often. I just dont want to be making the mistake you mention, nor do I want to be the cause of the problem.

"People who read forums for info...beware."

 

[capewind]

GDD ...Waterbug tends to have a way with words (can be gruff), but I have found as a general rule, his knowledge is reliable. I think BECAUSE you work inside a bubble at times (complete sterilization) you are over thinking ,.. come back down to the basics ... everything we eat, touch or in general are exposed to, is full of bacterias, good and bad. Same in a pond. Yes, there will be SOME bacteria killed off IF they pass through the UV, but what about all the OTHER bacterias everywhere else around them? Think of the dilution rate of the water that has passed through the UV, to be mixed back into the ponds volume, to continuiously multiplying bacterias? In running your experiment, remember to keep in mind the age of the bulb, it's effectiveness, as well as your flow rate. Are you running your UV as a clarafier or sterilizer? Check the manufacturers suggestions for your UV.

 

[hdavid44]

My sincere thanks to everyone who took the time to respond to my query.

1. My pond configuration is basically two connected ponds about 3 feet deep and holding about 4,000 Gallons. Because of water clarity problems over the past several years -- someone told me that may be impeding koi reproductionm, but I believe it is more likely that the koi I have are just gay -- I installed a small UV light in line with a pump that moves a relatively low flow of water from the pond into a rather big "bog" in which I have kept some lava rocks, some irises, etc. Not a real bog with small stones etc, but it does serve to separate out by gravity the fish poop that the pump brings in from the bottom of the pond and lets it accumulate at the bottom of the bog. Water from the bog then just flows back into the pond.

2. I have minimal algae in the bog and water channel leading back to the pond. No algae in the pond itself. Water is clear for the first time in years and I can actually see the fishes -- about 80 in all.

3. I have not been successful with natural homeostasis to keep the water clear and find the UV light a great boon.

4. My goal was to insert water plants that a) will survive the northeast winters when the pond freezes down to about one foot b) will extract nutrients from the fish extrusions and c) reduce the need for fish pellets, etc., which just adds nutrients to the water. I am not trying to make my fish vegetarians!! Just trying to make them eat their spinach -- in this case anachris. I tried duckweed but I could never tell wheter the fish ate any of it and they discolor and leave detritus.

5. Anachris is a perennial here so that solves one of my objectives. I am just not sure whether the fish are eating any of it, hence my question. One respondent mentioned that they may be grazing on the stuff at night or just eating the newly formed sprouts and roots, I have no way to tell. I just know that when I feed them fish pellets they eat ravenously -- but, what can one expect when they have no stomachs!!!

6. I am cutting back on the fish pellets and skipping some feeding days in hopes that they will take a shine to anachris. IN about another month water temperatures will drop below 50F when they will stop eating anyway.

7. Does anyone know if water lettuce, parrots feathers or other submerged plants serve my objectives? (perennial, edible to fish, and consumer of fish extrusions) ?? I have tried water hyacinths and water lillies but these are not perennials here.

8. I am still open to tinkering with the bog design so that I get more natural nutrient breakdown -- several suggestions about such devices may be worth trying. Ideally I can insert such a filtering material in a 55 gallon or other drum and place this above the level of the bog so that water pumped from the pond en route to the bog is forced to pass through this filter which I can then easily clean via a bottom drain ( my bog lacks a bottom drain!!)

9. Waterbug is right about UV causing mutations that destroy bacteria but in this case that is exactly what I want. If by any of the above steps I can reduce the need for UV or turn it off for several hours a day I would do so.

Again, thanks for all the suggestions.

harry

 

[Waterbug]

...assumption of mine that some percentage of the benebacteria are suspended at any one time. If this is true, passing thru the UV filter would harm these bacteria and have an effect on the colonies of beneficial bacteria in a pond. (I admit that I dont not know what percentage of BB are floating/suspended)

Yes, UV can kill 100% of bacteria.

It will also kill 100% of string algae.

Wait, no way! String algae isn't suspended, it never goes thru the UV. Lots of ponds have a UV and tons of string algae. WB has lost it.

How does string algae reproduce? How does string algae suddenly appear all over a pond, stream, waterfalls? Starts out as really tiny bits. Gets into the water on the wind and floats around for a long time until it can settle and attach. The initial cycle is suspended.

In the part of its suspended life cycle some will pass thru the UV and be killed. Why doesn't a UV keep a pond string algae free? Because not all go thru the UV.

Beneficial bacteria have almost the exact same life cycle.

The logic problem I think is two fold. One is thinking that if a 1000 gal pond with a 1000 GPH pump going thru a UV that everything in the water goes thru the UV every hour, or even everyday. Not the way it works. Second is underestimating the number of bacteria we're talking about and how it's everywhere. While they do thrive in certain conditions they are everywhere. Your keyboard, sides of buildings...everywhere.

It is more precise to say UV can kill 100% of bacteria that goes thru the UV. Will also kill 100% of string algae that goes thru the UV. Completely different from saying or thinking UV kills 100% of bacteria or string algae in a pond.

However, I did a search on this and did not find study after study after study showing no effect of BeneBacteria. Infact the searches all came back saying if bacteria, good or bad, pass through the UV filter, their genetic material will be damaged.

I Googled "pond UV effect on beneficial bacteria" and there were lots of examples.

If you read any decent pond forum, Koiphen, Koi-Bito, etc., and do a research you will find lots of info on the subject, including specifically on cycling a bio filter.

From a common sense perspective I think it's reasonable to consider the long time frame UV filters have been used in ponds. Bacteria is more important in keeping a pond than green water. Thinking UV killed bacteria enough to matter should at least be a red flag that maybe there's something more to the story.

I accept that there are many varibles, time, temperature, and fish load to name a few, however the only two known varibles I changed on my pond to finally stablize my water, clear and ~0 amonia were removing my UV and adding my 20 gallon bog.

Do you see a logic problem there? UV kills all bacteria but didn't clear your water? If the UV is killing all the bacteria why isn't it killing all the algae? Both can't be true.

It makes it really, really hard to help people when so many posts say things like this. A properly sized, installed and maintained UV is 100% effective against green water. Having green water means there was a problem was your UV installation, not that UV doesn't kill stuff. People read this and think "well I'm not going to waste my money on a UV"...the only thing that is 100% effective. Couple of months later, after trying barley straw, bogs, filters, peroxide, and about 50 other common "cures", they fill in their pond.

I know there are other health benefits to the UV such as killing pathogens.

Not true. Koi pond keepers wish this was possible. High end keepers would spend thousands on UV if this could be true. Killing some bacteria and virus in a UV doesn't reduce the risk in any meaningful way. Lots of discussions about this very thing on Koi forums.

However, I do still recomend looking at other causes of algae blooms and excess gunk rather than just fish diet. Would you agree WB?

No, If by excess gunk and fish diet you're referring to nutrients. Nutrients can make a green pond greener, but nutrients can not be reduced to a level to cause all suspended algae to die. Very simple to test. Takes like 2 minutes for anyone to test. But it's even easier for people to just repeat the myth. A pond clearing is not related to algae growth, it's related to toxic conditions. The algae can no longer survive in the water of a clear pond.

Water from a naturally clear pond will kill green water algae. Google "Norm Meck green water".

Also if you have a link or two to your mentioned studies, I would love to see them. Not just for this subject, but I would like to know where else to acquire published remarks to many of our questions.

It does take a little practice to get Google terms right. Don't limit yourself to ponds. Not a lot of research there. Include lakes and waste water treatment. Waste water treatment studies are especially plentiful. You will find many are extremely similar to almost all pond aspects.

I just dont want to be making the mistake you mention, nor do I want to be the cause of the problem.

I was gruff with you because I respect you. Based on your posts I think you might open minded enough to do some more serious research. Lots of posts I never bother to reply to because it's clearly pointless.

Gruffness does seem to work. I was reading a post by someone the other day who I'd been gruff with many times...well in this post they were suddenly saying the same thing I'd been hammering them with. Of course they gave me no credit and still hate my guts...that's fine...but nice to see. Hopefully they finally did some research and aren't just parroting me.

15-20 years ago I posted 1000's of really gruff posts about concrete in ponds. At that time forums were packed full of "experts" telling people concrete killed fish. If someone had fish dying the first question was always "do you have concrete in the pond"? It was horrible. Similar to this nutrient - green pond thing because it was also so simple to test. Took me 3 years but I think I made a dent. The myth is still around but I hardly ever run into it now. I'm pretty proud of that. Small thing, it was a ton of work, but I think the hobby is better for the effort.

I'm not really looking for another battle like that again, but I'm also not really here to stroke egos either.

So to all those who get their feelings hurt when someone disagrees with then, bummer. Prove me wrong.

 

[adavisus]

When it is warm enough for fish to eat, there may be a way to find out what fish get up to after dark.

Put an empty glass to the water surface, put ear to glass.

Assuming there is some gravel in the pond, you will hear non stip clinking as fish pick bits up and spit them out, scouring surfaces for algae to scrape...

An abundant source of aquatic plants, the bugs that live among them and fall in the pond, well, the fish have all night to graze on them

Obviously if there is a good ratio of fish to food in a pond, your only question is what best might supplement their diet

Regards, andy
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21940871@N06/
http://swglist.wordpress.com/

 

[Mucky_Waters]

When it is warm enough for fish to eat, there may be a way to find out what fish get up to after dark.

Put an empty glass to the water surface, put ear to glass.

Assuming there is some gravel in the pond, you will hear non stip clinking as fish pick bits up and spit them out, scouring surfaces for algae to scrape...

An abundant source of aquatic plants, the bugs that live among them and fall in the pond, well, the fish have all night to graze on them

Obviously if there is a good ratio of fish to food in a pond, your only question is what best might supplement their diet

Regards, andy
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21940871@N06/
http://swglist.wordpress.com/

I think you'd have to have a pretty quite pond (no submersible pumps running, no waterfall, no spitters or fountains) for that to work.

I'm pretty convinced my fish just go to sleep at night. Any time I go out to the pond during the night and turn the light on they all seem to me just hovering around in the deeper part of the pond, although not right at the bottom.