Have a really sick fish and [I think] a really big problem!

[Dave 54]

They are gill the maggots of a different species of fish Maggie on koi they are quite small so if goldfish also suffer from them it would be that they were around about the same size

Davr

 

[Mmathis]

@Dave 54 Regarding gill maggots: I doctored the picture I took of gill tissue and drew in a spec that was roughy the size of what I saw at 400x to give you an idea. It's at the end of the pointer.

From what I read up on gill maggots, even a gold fish sized critter would still be large enough to almost view with the naked eye. Also, what I looked up didn't actually LOOK like a maggot.

But, all that's really beside the point. Oh, dear..... And I'm still not sure what's going on, but think I'll pull and scope a couple more fish today.

 

[bettasngoldfish]

Any updates Maggie?

 

[Mmathis]

Any updates Maggie?

Thanks for asking, Maria! No, I'm at a stalemate at the moment. I'm just not convinced that I have an active parasite problem, though it would explain a lot. Trying hard NOT to succumb to denial, so keeping options open. Water parameters are and have been normal; pond ecosystem is healthy judging by # and variety of inverts; there is plenty of filtration and aeration [probably to the point of over-kill....oooh, I didn't mean it to come out like that....].

To date, I have scraped & scoped a total of 7 fish, including the sick one [ she finally died ]. Even though I've found a few "things" on a couple of the slides, there hasn't been anything that screams out PARASITES! So, still doing research and asking more questions. I'll post a couple of pictures in a separate post.

But it still seems odd that THIS fish has become ill and died, again, within a week or so of a bad thunderstorm with lightening so close you could feel it. Odd, very odd.

 

[Mmathis]

A brief follow-up. As I'm learning, there is so much more to using a microscope and trying to identify parasites than meets the eye [pun intended]. It's not as simple as looking through the eyepiece and instantly seeing a textbook image of whatever the textbook says you should be looking for. I am finding things that look like parasites, but are non-motile. And things that don't look like parasites that are motile. Then there are things like Brownian Motion, convection currents, and capillary action that make the things under the slide move -- which is deceptive and alarming to the newbie.

Where am I now in figuring out what's going on with the fish? Well, I explained that in the previous post [#19]. But where I REALLY am, is climbing my learning curve, trying to learn about all those extraneous things I'm seeing on the slides so I can teach my brain how to distinguish between normal, abnormal, and WHOA! There's a lot more "normal" to be seen than there is "abnormal," as I'm discovering, with a smattering of "WHOA!"

 

[Mmathis]

Some pictures for your enjoyment and/or opinions.....

These were all non-motile from a fish scraping. I think the big blob is mucus. The things circled in yellow might be Trichodina. Normally, Trichodina is very active, spinning and flipping. That's the characteristic you look for. These didn't move. But, notice the one circled in green -- even though it's not moving, it does look like a side view of this particular parasite. The thing circled in red, next picture....

"Thing circled in red." No clue, but I watched it travel (glide) on the slide with apparent purposeful motion -- until it "found" this collection of clear circles. Then it stopped, and joined them. Maybe this is the microbe bar!

Like an idiot, I looked at this "ferning" pattern forever, positive I'd found the worst-ever pond parasite. Until my common sense kicked me in the, you know...... It's salt. By the time I took this scraping, I had salted the water. Duh!

This did not come from a fish scraping, but rather some material floating in the water.... Let's just say, that my next step is to have fecals run on my turtles.

I was excited to find a "Hidden Mickey" Mouse on my slide [big Disney fan]! Actually, no idea what this is, but I don't think it's a pathogen. You couldn't tell just by looking in the scope (this is at 400x), but when I used the camera lens to "zoom" in, you could see the insides of the circles were alive with activity.



If I could post videos you could see what moves and what doesn't.

 

[Meyer Jordan]

99.9% of what you will see with a microscope are harmless micro- and meio-organisms that are common (and desired) in any pond. In Photo #4, you have captured either a specie of round worm or nematode (not knowing the magnification power). Both comprise a large portion of the natural diet of most pond fish.

 

[bettasngoldfish]

You are too funny Maggie, I'm glad to see you can find some humor in this I know it's not easy.....

Your doing a great job investigating. Wish I had more to offer but I don't.

Questions for you though, I was wondering if you were able to scrap any of your fish without sedating them? Are your fish now in your quarantine tank? Have you decided to treat with salt?

 

[Mmathis]

99.9% of what you will see with a microscope are harmless micro- and meio-organisms that are common (and desired) in any pond. In Photo #4, you have captured either a specie of round worm or nematode (not knowing the magnification power). Both comprise a large portion of the natural diet of most pond fish.

You are so right, and I totally understand! And where I am at this point is learning to differentiate between them. The worm is a roundworm, but because my pond is directly connected to the turtle bog, I'm going to have fecals run on 1 or 2 of the turtles just to be sure they don't have parasites. I have had to treat them one other time in the past. Just a bit of routine turtle health maintenence.

You are too funny Maggie, I'm glad to see you can find some humor in this I know it's not easy.....

Your doing a great job investigating. Wish I had more to offer but I don't.

Questions for you though, I was wondering if you were able to scrap any of your fish without sedating them? Are your fish now in your quarantine tank? Have you decided to treat with salt?

Thanks, and yes, I have to maintain some humor......

No, I didn't sedate them for scraping as that goes pretty quick and they're easy to hold -- now a larger fish, like a koi, I would sedate. And if I was going to do more, especially try to get a look at the gills I would probably sedate them because that is uncomfortable and they'll struggle and fight. Plus, to me, it's not easy doing anything [except getting a scrape] on a goldfish because they're so small....

Last year sometime I did sedate a couple of the fish. I wanted practice doing that so I would be more comfortable if I ever had to do it "for real." And I practiced taking scrapes as well. But, believe me, I was still so nervous. Glad I did the practice, though -- it gave me confidence to know that I CAN do it!

No, to the QT. If I treated, it would have to be pond-wide. But right now there is no evidence that they need to be treated -- it was just that one fish [and I did isolate her]. After I scraped each fish, I did give them each a 20-30 min. salt bath -- if for no other reason than it would boost their slime coat to slough off anything that was there [as long as it was sensitive to salt]. But I didn't see anything on those fish, so...... Back to square 1. I have no idea what I'm doing, but I'm doing what seems to make common sense. I don't believe in randomly treating for who-knows-what. In other words, I'm learning as I go.

And I welcome comments and differences of opinion. That's why I posted this. But FORUM ETIQUETTE [as @Becky has the link in her signature ] rules apply.

 

[Mmathis]

@Meyer Jordan I forgot to add -- the image of the worm was at the mid-mag, so 100x?

 

[bettasngoldfish]

I was only asking about sedating because it's something I'm not completely comfortable with myself and would only do it if absolutely necessary. I mean I use clove oil to euthanize any sick fish so it's hard for me to use it to sedate and not worry about overdosing it.

I really need to get my scope out and start playing around with it more so I can get more comfortable with viewing slides like you are doing. How are you taking the photos of the slides?

If the turtles have roundworms is that something that could infect the fish as well?

 

[Mmathis]

I was only asking about sedating because it's something I'm not completely comfortable with myself and would only do it if absolutely necessary. I mean I use clove oil to euthanize any sick fish so it's hard for me to use it to sedate and not worry about overdosing it.

I really need to get my scope out and start playing around with it more so I can get more comfortable with viewing slides like you are doing. How are you taking the photos of the slides?

If the turtles have roundworms is that something that could infect the fish as well?

When you sedate them, you should have an airstone in with them. Part of it is simple monitoring vital signs, so to speak. You'll watch to make sure they're still breathing -- I probably under-sedated the ones I experimented on -- and if there is any question, you dilute the water they're in with fresh water. It reverses pretty quickly. When you begin, follow directions on how to dilute and mix the clove oil [I would have to look it up] and go slowly -- add, observe, add, observe. Each fish will probably respond differently. I'm very glad that I did my trial run!

Photos of slides.... Trial & error. Putting the iPhone or iPad up to the eyepiece -- major fail. Then I decided to try my little auto-focus camera [Nikon CoolPix] and it worked. I set it to "macro." There is still some fiddling to get the veiw just right. This camera has a rectangular frame around the lens, so it wasn't like a perfect fit with the eyepiece, but it worked! I love being able to zoom in and to be able to take videos! What I really want is an iPad adapter that fits over the eyepiece, so I can use the iPad to view the slide.

Roundworms, fish & turtles. Not exactly sure. Also not sure if the roundworms were just THERE, naturally; if they came from the turtles; or if they can be transmitted back to the turtles via the water. I have treated the turts in the past for a couple of internal parasites -- they get them from the soil. They also poop in their water, and that water then goes back to the pond...... I'll let you know what I find out.

We took a cat to the vet yesterday and I tried to get some fresh turtle poop to take along to have a fecal done, but darn turtle wouldn't cooperate! I know people [my family.....] must think I'm the wierdest person alive, the things I do for these silly turtles! How does one collect a turtle poop specimen? Put them in a box [I use the bath tub -- long story], and before too long, SOMEONE is going to poop. And it doesn't matter whose poop it is, 'cause with reptiles living in a common habitat, if one has something, you assume that they all have it. TMI?

 

[bettasngoldfish]

We took a cat to the vet yesterday and I tried to get some fresh turtle poop to take along to have a fecal done, but darn turtle wouldn't cooperate! I know people [my family.....] must think I'm the wierdest person alive, the things I do for these silly turtles! How does one collect a turtle poop specimen? Put them in a box [I use the bath tub -- long story], and before too long, SOMEONE is going to poop. And it doesn't matter whose poop it is, 'cause with reptiles living in a common habitat, if one has something, you assume that they all have it. TMI?

Are we gonna have to start calling you the crazy turtle lady?

 

[Mmathis]

Maria, LOL! I'm already the "crazy cat lady!"

 

[bettasngoldfish]

Maria, LOL! I'm already the "crazy cat lady!"

Hahahah, I love it!!!