High pH level!

[gardengimp]

Dave, maybe you are lucky enough to live someplace where you don't get ph swings. I don't understand all of Charles chemistry, but I do understand how to read a kh test, and what to do with the test result. And my fish really appreciate me taking the time to learn it, particularly when we have ten inches of rain in five days.

 

[Waterbug]

Total Ammonia (or NH3 more specifically)

Specifically Total Ammonia is NH3 and NH4.

 

[Waterbug]

Sorry WB, that is not correct. Sodium is not considered to be a salt in the context of pH chemistry. Sodium is considered to be an electrolyte element.

"salt" in the context of pH chemistry is defined as an ionic compound that result from the neutralization of an acid or base. In our context, "salt" is the carbonate or bicarbonate.

Sorry C, that is not correct. You can call carbonate a salt if you wish, your prerogative. Doesn't make it true though.

 

[Dave 54]

Dave, maybe you are lucky enough to live someplace where you don't get ph swings. I don't understand all of Charles chemistry, but I do understand how to read a kh test, and what to do with the test result. And my fish really appreciate me taking the time to learn it, particularly when we have ten inches of rain in five days.

We test for KH but the adverage fish keeper doesnt, my fish also appreciate me taking the time to learn.
One of my two mentors was the Chair of the BKKS Health Standards Committee who we are lucky to have as a member of our club, so I was taken through everything by him.
But the fact still remains thatin helping people we came across this time and time again, people dont see it as a necessary test to do.
I dont know why pehaps they didnt do well in on the Chemistry at school, we also found they also aviod other tests like Disolved Oxygen content or DOC Total disolved solids or TDS all important.
I've a feeling that this problem stems from peoples Aquarium days they didnt do it then and perhaps they feel they dont need it now ?.
Can I ask you if you test for DOC or TDS?
Remember back in the days of being a Kid who won a goldfish on the fair......... we never tested for anything back then, just changed the water in the bowl yet those goldfish if you were lucky lived for many years mine managed ten, we didnt even know to dechorinate, its a wonder they did surive or were the some tough Hombre's back then ??

rgrds

Dave

 

[crsublette]

I honestly cant answer you in a way that makes any sense LOL. KH is just a number to me. You could tell me the ideal target number was x, but I have no basis to understand what is bad, in either direction, or HOW bad, what to do about it,, when or how ... So I leave that all to hubby LOL. If I am testing PH, it is because I, the constant worrywart is thinking something is off... PH has always been okay, but since it is a test I am familiar with, it falls into check the easiest and most obvious first. I need to be able to understand the WHY, and for some reason, I cant "get" the KH issue through my brain LOL. I *do* need to better understand the chemistry angle and cant get it LOL. Hubby sometimes teases me about being the dumbest smart person he knows. The hidden joke is IQ wise, I test out extremely high, but I get stumped by some of the simplest things.

This is the point I am trying to make. I bet ya don't understand PH any better than KH.

It IS just a number to you just like pH is just a number to you. You don't need to understatnd WHY. If you can't "get it", that is the chemistry angle, then don't worry about it since it it completely not necessary.

You are told a number with PH and, whenever your test result strays from that number you are told, then only then you get the impression that "something is off".

When you're addressing the problems with PH, you are actually correcting the KH.

 

[crsublette]

Sorry C, that is not correct. You can call carbonate a salt if you wish, your prerogative. Doesn't make it true though.

Carbonate. In chemistry, a carbonate is a salt of carbonic acid.

Specifically Total Ammonia is NH3 and NH4.

Correct. However, you misunderstood the point I was making. Folk are actually worried about the NH3. NH3 is what is toxic to fish. NH4 only becomes toxic to fish whenever the NH4 converts to NH3.

Personally, I only monitor the NH3 whenever I start cycling a new tank.

 

[crsublette]

Do you now understand Charles that the average fish keeper just doesnt really care about KH relying instead as I said on PH , KH GH and others arent tested for.
Unless your buying say the Tetra pond kit they dont see KH or GH, buying instead the Ammonia PH Nitrite and Nitrarte they keep things nice and simple some dont even understand the chemical terms,and what you are trying so well to explain is lost on them .
Weve had 27 years in this hobby now and have talked to many, many people thats how we worked out the keeping things simple formula, you tend to loose them otherwise

rgrds

Dave

I firmly believe MOST don't understand the chemical terms, including the ones you find so basic. I firmly believe MOST folk making things out to be much more complicated than they truly are.

Dave, maybe you can answer the same question I posed to Capewind.

Why is it easier for you to understand pH and not KH ?? I'm not asking you about the chemistry, just talking about the test and result.

 

[Dave 54]

I'm probably the least arrogant of people in the world and you have our deepest sympathy on how your evening has gone but your calling the wrong person arrogant.
It upsets me that you are stressed out.
How do you think we felt after our break in stressed wasnt the word however, the crook undid tears of counseling ridding me of childhood trauma in one, now I worry that I may need help again swtich off which this person who invaided my home and my sanctuary against all the bad things happened in my younger life, bad things that happened deeply scaring me for the rest of my life,how do you think I feel about that?
The man that used such violence on me that a was black and blue for weeks yet clever enough not to leave bruises on my face in those days kids didnt have a voice in the UK .
The man that caused me such mental pain that for years I self medicated on drink to bury the pain he caused!!!....
I didnt take it out verbally on someone just because they have an opinion on something they care deeply about, arrogance is for others on this forum not me and the KKU website reflects that go take a look and see just how wrong you are on that.
Is this the way this forum goes you shout some poor bugger down because he/she has an opinion that another person is allowed to lord it over think again...
My name isnt Dr Kevin Novak a man who came across to spread the word about his Anoxic filtration yet got a disgusting time of it which the people involved should be ashamed of.
My Name is Dave dont forget that and I have a humble opinion of myself almost subserviant you do when your told at the end of a mans fist knee and boot that your shit and as a boy of 11 .
It makes me sad that you feel that way, yet I'm man enough to put my hand up and say this not have an entrenched opinion of myself.
I hope things get better for you I really do.

rgrds

Dave

 

[capewind]

Dave, I flipped on the statement of the wording of the average ponder doesnt care, in reference to a conversation involving myself. The rest was out of line, and for that I apologize... I already emailed Larkin asking for it to be deleted. Still havent slept and beyond exhausted on all levels.

 

[crsublette]

Dave, maybe you are lucky enough to live someplace where you don't get ph swings. I don't understand all of Charles chemistry, but I do understand how to read a kh test, and what to do with the test result. And my fish really appreciate me taking the time to learn it, particularly when we have ten inches of rain in five days.

This is exactly my point. Thanks Dianne.

Folk only need to understand KH well enough to do the test and to compare the results to a chart, that is exactly as folk do with PH, except there is one very important caveat between KH and PH


When observing PH, you are being reactive. Treating the problem after it has happened.

When observing KH, you are being proactive. Treating the problem before it has happened.


It is quite dissapointing the big freshwater test kit from API does not include a KH test. Instead of having a single KH test, these big test kits rather wants to confuse the consumer by having two PH tests, that is one for low range and one for high range or one for all ranges. I think these type of products just further encourages the problems created from focusing on pH.

And, to use Dave's language, folk should be ashamed of them self for encouraging others to focus on pH. It is definitely that important of a basic water parameter folk need to know.

 

[crsublette]

And, to use Dave's language, folk should be ashamed of them self for encouraging others to focus on pH. It is definitely that important of a basic water parameter folk need to know.

Quick clarification, to avoid confusion, the " it " I am referring to is KH.

 

[Dave 54]

Sadly Charles this is the case in many of the ponds weve had reason to visit, thinking it through I think the trade itself is partially to blame for this state of affairs they know they are selling test kits to pond keepers but never insist on selling KH or GH kits unless asked by the fishkeeper.
Then you get the bad practice of fishkeepers not using it, education at source is the key to this.

rgrds

Dave

 

[richyd]

Still a newbie but I have experience with this. When I constructed the pond I used a lot of cement on the brickwork and waterfall which I did not use any sealer on. I had some fish and some koi at the time which were fine but the ph was gradually rising. Turned out to be lime in the cement leaking into the pond. It got as high as 9.0 at one point. I sealed the cement using G4. I know there are chemicals and the like out there to reduce the ph, I think tetra even do a product called "water balance"(think thats the name) which puts you PH and KH at the correct levels, but I wouldn't use this if you have fish.
My local aquatic guy recommended gradual 20% water changes weekly. It took time but my ph is now stable and buffered and all my fish are fine

 

[crsublette]

Still a newbie but I have experience with this. When I constructed the pond I used a lot of cement on the brickwork and waterfall which I did not use any sealer on. I had some fish and some koi at the time which were fine but the ph was gradually rising. Turned out to be lime in the cement leaking into the pond. It got as high as 9.0 at one point. I sealed the cement using G4. I know there are chemicals and the like out there to reduce the ph, I think tetra even do a product called "water balance"(think thats the name) which puts you PH and KH at the correct levels, but I wouldn't use this if you have fish.
My local aquatic guy recommended gradual 20% water changes weekly. It took time but my ph is now stable and buffered and all my fish are fine

pH "water balance" products compose of particular buffering solutions and minerals that raise your KH and also likely your calcium level.

Richyd, I bet ya your water's calcium concentration is quite low.

KH only stops your pH from falling. KH does not stop your pH from rising. Nature naturally lowers your pH and is often the predominant occurence in our ponds.

Calcium is what helps prevent your pH from reaching above 8.4. A high GH does not indicate a high calcium. GH is a test of many minerals plus calcium, but it is the presence of calcium that matters; this is how a GH test can be deceiving and not helpful.

As in nature, everything in pH chemistry is in balance. Free hydrogen ions (H+, this is predominately created by the nitrification process) and hydroxide (OH-, that is created by anaerobic conditions and algae) are always in equillibrium with water. So, when the H+ concentration goes up (pH goes down if KH is low). When the OH- concentration increase (pH goes up if calcium is low).

If calcium is not present to neutralize the carbonate (CO32-), then the carbonate reacts with water to increase the OH- concentration, which causes the pH to go up.

Lime is a general term for calcium-containing inorganic materials, in which carbonates, oxides and hydroxides predominate. The predominance of hydroxides (OH-) in lime is what causes Lime to raise the pH.

Again, in our ponds, we most often have a predominance of H+ created due to nitrification and other decomposing so it takes the addition of a tremendous amount of algae or lime or other compounds for the pH of our pond to go up.

Richyd, I bet ya adding calcium chloride flakes would have fixed your high pH. Not for sure where in the UK you would get it, but here in the states we get it from the hardware store and it is the product with zero additives.

 

[Waterbug]

A good thread on concrete in ponds.
RichToyBox on Koiphen also has many posts explaining the chemistry.
My page Cement in a pond will raise pH and kill the fish.