How to flow into winter with a watercourse and pond.

Discussion in 'Winterizing Your Pond' started by urglik, Oct 13, 2016.

  1. urglik

    urglik

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    Location:
    Green Oak Township, Mi
    howdy.
    i would love some advice on how to manage a watercourse and pond into fall and winter.

    my approach so far has been to run the watercourse when the temps are in the upper 60's
    or higher. i've been covering the pond in the evenings.

    i would like to run the watercourse as late as possible. it's the ponds mechanical and biological filter.
    i have built a secondary filter.
    the rubber lined pond is one week old.

    i've included a weather report of what the temps have been like though this is only our 3rd 30 degree night this year.

    i imagine beneficial bacteria are taking a hit throughout the watercourse with the low temps.

    today the temp is 55. the water in the pond is 64.

    also, any suggestions on how to dam the way between the bog pond and deep pond so the deep pond can be a foot deeper for the winter?


    thank you.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2016
    urglik, Oct 13, 2016
    #1
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  2. urglik

    MitchM

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    My initial thought is that your pond is vulnerable to surface runoff, which should be your first concern.
    Surface runoff from rain and snow melt will ruin anything else you are concerned about.
    Get that fixed asap.
    From the pictures, it could be a big job. You don't have much liner to work with.
    There should be a raised edge all along the stream and the pond itself.
    We can discuss winter prep after that issue is fixed.

    .
     
    MitchM, Oct 13, 2016
    #2
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  3. urglik

    urglik

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    thank you for you reply.

    the perimeter water flow and overflow management has been on my mind.

    i'm not going to concern myself with the watercourse and the bog pond will be drained for this winter.

    i will be sloping most of the perimeter of the fish pond and bog pond downward for about 20 inches across or so away from the waters edge.
    at this late date and with no rock, i will be putting wood mulch down and under the rubber to lift it up over
    the exposed ground which is mostly clay after the excavation.

    i'm providing for pond overflow and general draining as shown coming from the corner of the fish pond and guiding it into the trees.
    i have not dug the overflow channel into the fish pond yet.

    landscaping to channel water is pretty straightforward. as a newbie, guiding these individuals through winter is not.


    overflow corner
    [​IMG]


    i had intended to have more rubber here. doh!
    an example of the perimeter where it needs to slope down and away from the water. not up a mountain side.
    [​IMG]


    i need a sluice gate...
    [​IMG]


    i've removed the dirt from the peninsula and will be civilizing the area into a patio with stone, brick, tiles, etc. for now, wood mulch all around.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2016
    urglik, Oct 13, 2016
    #3
  4. urglik

    MitchM

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    Once you have the drainage issue fixed, you can run the watercourse until there is a danger of ice building which could redirect water out of the pond.
    (Right now you are going to have surface water running over and under the liner. Not good.)

    After that, turn off the water for the winter.
    How deep is the part where you are going to have fish?
    I think it's too late in the year to add any fish that will be staying the winter. Add the fish next year.
    I don't recommend using that pool cover, it prevents gas exchange and serves no purpose.

    .
     
    MitchM, Oct 14, 2016
    #4
  5. urglik

    sissy sissy

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    draining the pond for winter will expose the liner to cold and freezing in the winter .It can crack the liner , Sad to say but I know that from first hand experience and we don't get that cold here :(
     
    sissy, Oct 14, 2016
    #5
  6. urglik

    urglik

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    wow. wouldn't think that would happen to a rubber liner. good to know. i wonder the normal life of an epdm liner is.
    beyond a puncture, abrasion, or cracking, i would think it would be a long time.

    the bog pond i mentioned draining is the old pond that is lined with a swimming pool. it was originally a small duck pond.
    it has had a slow leak for some time and with the removal of rocks on the bottom it is leaking faster.

    i thought in the spring i will reline it with epdm and turn it into a proper bog.

    with it drained i can more easily manage the fish pond for this first winter.

    thank you for your interest!
     
    urglik, Oct 14, 2016
    #6
  7. urglik

    sissy sissy

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    It will last a long time as long it is not exposed to weather conditions .I left a piece out in 2014 when I redid my pond and it was under the snow and when the snow melted I saw it and went to pick it up it cracked .I saw it a couple of times and kept forgetting to pick it up ,so my fault .It was a 6x6 piece from my lily pond .I found out it was to small for the lily pond and bought a 8x8 piece to replace it and just forgot to pick it up .It did do a good job of protecting my banana plant roots .But not so great for the liner .You can leave the water in your pond with no harm coming to it with water in it .Back in 2005 when I built my first pond and fish were still in preformed I had built my pond and left it all winter with water in it and no problems .That is until the guy helping build my front porch dropped a board down into it and it made a hole in my liner .That was a new liner for a new liner and lucky I was waiting to move fish until that side of the porch was done
     
    sissy, Oct 14, 2016
    #7
  8. urglik

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Was that an EPDM liner that cracked.? EPDM has a very wide temperature range for use, from -40° to 175° Fahrenheit.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Oct 14, 2016
    #8
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  9. urglik

    sissy sissy

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    Thing is that spring the banana plants died and gave up on having banana plants but got some from a lady in 2014 and they grew way to good as you can see :) 100_8758.JPG yep it was a 45 mil epdm liner
     
    sissy, Oct 14, 2016
    #9
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  10. urglik

    sissy sissy

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    Also dogs toe nails should not cut into an epdm liner and so far I have proved that is wrong 2 times .The 6x6 was 45 mil epdm .A couple of years ago and a couple of weeks ago 2 dogs 2 liners ruined .Not my lucky day
     
    sissy, Oct 14, 2016
    #10
  11. urglik

    urglik

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    ouch!
     
    urglik, Oct 14, 2016
    #11
  12. urglik

    sissy sissy

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    This liner was put in 2014 so brand new but he cut it with his toe nails right in the folds in the corner it took me awhile to find where it was leaking from .I saw the water on the ground and was hoping on hope it was going to be an easy fix and of course not .Murphy's Law
     
    sissy, Oct 14, 2016
    #12
  13. urglik

    Meyer Jordan Tadpole

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    Interesting considering that EPDM membrane is used extensively in roofing applications nationwide and subsequently exposed to all extremes in temperature yet it apparently holds up well or its use would quickly cease. This is the exact same membrane used in ponds that is formulated to be fish-safe. I don't know of any flexible chemical-based membrane that would be resistant to any sharp object especially animal claws.
     
    Meyer Jordan, Oct 15, 2016
    #13
  14. urglik

    sissy sissy

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    Firestone is the brand I used but heard from a man that works in the goodyear tire plant here that good year makes some also .The pond at the goodyear plant is made of there liner .They told me that the only difference in roofing liner and pond liner is there is an algaecide that is added to the roofing membrane and the powdered coating the put on it to keep it from sticking together .Baking soda is used for pond liner or corn starch and the roof stuff gets something else that had a funny name .Strange but goodyear never really went forward with the production of pond liner because it was not really a money maker and they stopped production a lot of the roofing membrane years ago
     
    sissy, Oct 16, 2016
    #14
  15. urglik

    mgmine

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    Don't worry about the beneficial bacteria. When its time (which is now) just shut everything down and take the pump inside. Drain the lines and let nature takes its course. If anything breaks you will know and can remedy the situation next year.

    As far as general building of the pond Mitch is dead on there will be massive amounts of run off going into the pond. What I would suggest would be to clear away the dirt from the sides as much as you can then pull the liner up so that it is just slightly above ground level. You will have to fill the pond to determine when it is at the level you want. You want to get a good compromise between the lowest part and the highest part. You can add fill to raise the ground level but you can't take away from the lowest level. You can also add a shelf and rocks to hide liner on the high sides At that point grade the area around the pond so that it slopes away. The pond will be a little smaller but you will have solved the problem.
     
    mgmine, Oct 19, 2016
    #15
  16. urglik

    urglik

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    Location:
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    thanks mgmine and everyone else for your interest and help.

    sorry for my absence. sometimes i get quite amassed in my role...
    plus i've been having some technical difficulties and i might also be a little weird...

    that being said, i have taken your drainage suggestions to heart and feel i'm close
    to being prepared. just need to lay a few more rocks for the winter along the perimeter
    and add a little height to the pond edge of the middle island and the rest of the pond
    perimeter will either drain into the watercourse, bog, or lawn. there's a long wide mound
    behind the windbreak that will channel exterior flow away.

    i installed a sluice between the bog and pond which allows the pond to be deeper for winter
    and would eventually channel excessive watercourse/bog runoff into the low end drainage.

    one photo shows the drainage for the low end of the system.

    probably face the dirt wall with wood plank. we're waiting for a millage to pass...
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    someone doesn't like the drainage plan though...

    [​IMG]

    my focus with winter has always been keeping individuals warm and fed.
    winter does not scare me anymore.
    giving thanks!
     
    urglik, Dec 1, 2016
    #16
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  17. urglik

    callingcolleen1 mad hatter

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    Location:
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    I have all top quality best liner I could find, 45mil epdm liner, live in Ice Cold Canada, and all three of my big fat puppies have been in every pond at one point in their life, never had toenails puncture the liner and my oldest liner is about 20 years now and still in use....

    I will say that one time I did get a liner that was supposed to be top quality 45 mil epdm, but it never felt as flexible or soft as the other liners. It was in a pond kit I got from my sister when she worked at Canadian Tire, and she was going to make a pond out of it but she never got around to it and sold the kit to me.
    That liner did crack a little in the waterway area and one other area at the top exposed edge, and that is the liner I want to pull out this spring as it is obviously "crappy Tire liner" (bad Canadian nickname for junk brought at Canadian Tire store) ha ha...
     
    callingcolleen1, Dec 14, 2016
    #17
    urglik likes this.
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