How young can comets reproduce?

[capewind]

Ok, I am feeling like an idiot this morning LOL.

This year was the first year we've collected babies (koi, comets & shubunkins) out of the ponds to watch them grow within days of hatching (before they could be gobbled up by bigger fish) and also kept a bunch of koi that spawned in QT... Have been having a blast watching the babies develop Still have some tiny guys that are just under an inch, but the largest are now coming up on 3-3.5"... With growing out I guess you could say five varieties (comets, shubunkins, standard koi, butterfly koi, and some hybrids), there is always something new to see We've kept about 130, and as obscene as it sounds, I know each of them as individuals and notice their near daily changes in growth or color development (they are all inside).

I had read that comets can start reproducing while still very small, but cant now find the info:-( I've been watching one comet in particular, just on the note of it is kind of neat watching the color change (will be all red/orange, but started out blackish brown & gold).. Then I noticed "it" getting chubby... Looked liked she was plumping up with eggs, but then I was thinking nahhh, she isnt even 3" yet (parents are 2-3 yrs old and 9-12")... No doubting 'it' is a she, and she is most definitely plump with eggs... This morning she wouldnt come up to eat (only 32 fish in 750 gallons of water, so low stress too), just hovered near the bottom (there are also yawn mops in the holding pond too), and I have seen our koi do this when they are close to spawning... I'm still a bit hung up on this girl only being a few months old and plump with eggs already... but now my concern is her vent is very swollen/protruding... I know to some degree that is normal (protruding vent = female) but it seems more enlarged then it should be. I never notice this on the koi, who being bigger, one would think it would be easier to spot... again, this comet girl is just coming up on 3" and it is obvious... Would you guess she is close to spawning? Or could being so young, could she be impacted with the eggs? We havent netted her yet, but it almost looks like the vent is somewhat open... hard to put to words... think in terms of it almost looking like a tiny pellet just inside the vent that is exposed.

Not sure if being so over tired (have a nasty cold) has me being "blond" or if I even am just over thinking a natural occurance LOL. Like I said, feeling like an idiot this morning, and frustrated I cant find this info on a simple websearch LOL.

 

[addy1]

Mine where 3-5 inches when they started populating the pond last year. The net says 3-4 inches they can spawn. Disclaimer: I am not an expert on goldfish breeding!

 

[fishin4cars]

At 3" and describing what your describing I would be concerned. Normally a Comet, or Shubunkin would not even start showing signs of female/ male characteristics for the first year. I've heard of some spawning at 9 months which may still be in the 3"-4" range, but that would be a pretty rare case. Even that being the case I doubt it would be swollen that much. A egg bound female would need to be like that for months before it started causing swimming and bladder issues. Being your watching them inside, I presume all water quality is in check, and no other physical signs, I would be concerned with a internal bacteria/virus infection (Note: I say virus only because I recently read in a goldfish forum of some virus strains that have been detected. You won't find medications for this so it would need to be treated for either bacterial of internal fungal, which I doubt fungal is the case with no other redness or scale problems being noticed, but is a possibility ) I would first separate and raise the temp to 70-75 degrees, possibly add salt up to .3% (this is a debate by many) and if no sign of improvement then start trying to feed a anti-bacterial food. Keep watching the rest for possible problems and most def. watch water quality closely. 100+ babies may not look like a full container of fish, but they can still produce a good bit of waste.

 

[capewind]

Water quality is as perfect as I can test/hope for. What should be at zero is, the load is so minimal, even the nitrates barely show a reading... KH/GH good too... Water supply is from outside pond (plenty of filtration/plants/bog area, etc,)... If I was to say anything is off in water quality, the PH has been running a bit low (7.2-7.4) but that isnt low enough to worry about. Salt level is minimal at best. AKA put 40 lbs into 9000 gallons when we set up the bigger ponds this spring, but have taken so much water out (fills the fish tanks and baby ponds for water changes), the salt may as well be non existent at this point. Water temp in the 750 gallon QT is at 72.

I have the babies in two different ponds. As the babies hit about 2.5" I have been moving them to the 750 gallon QT pond in the basement, Only 32 of them in there now, with roughly 3000 gph of filtration. I doubt the filtration system even know they are in there;-) I could transport all 32 of them at once in a 4 cup measuring cup.

I am not seeing any redness, missing scales, etc on anyone.

There is no doubt on the age of the fish, the existing ponds are new this year (went from 2000 gallons to a dual/combined pond of 9000 gallons), and they were caught out of the main pond when they were less than a quarter of an inch in size, just a couple of months or so ago.

My camera doesnt take the best of pics in the water, but will see if I can get a pic of her.

 

[capewind]

Well, she is swimming around now, but not coming over for food:-( Doing her own thing. Going to have to net her to get a pic. Will wait and see how she is doing. Dont want to stress her, but I did get some new pics of the others. Will post them seperately.

 

[fishin4cars]

I really don't think salt is going to do much but some try it some don't I've used it for years and seen unexplained improvements in some fish, Take that for what it is worth, LOL, Temp and ph are fine. actually if KH is above 100 your Ph of 7.2-7.4 is perfect for goldfish. Also with these being so young, it could simply be a genetic defect showing up. I would watch closely, If another one starts looking and acting the same then maybe start taking some action. If you have 10-20 gallon tank and airstone maybe remove it to there and watch it more closely. Things to watch for for sure, raised scales, redness around abdomen or in fins, heavy breathing, redness around gills, clamped fins, and wouldn't be bad idea to see if it is pooping, If so does it appear the same or different from the rest of the fish.
Pics may help. I wouldn't mind seeing for sure.

 

[capewind]

KH is about 160 & GH is about 120. Our usual PH is 7.6, or 7.4 if it had rained. We've had a lot of rain lately, thus being a bit lower than normal... again, all the inside pond waters come from the main pond... I figure if the outside fish are happy, we'll just keep stealing a bit of their water. They wont miss 20 to 350 gallons here and there

She is swimming around now (and ate) but now that it is dark, the basement lighting isnt good enough to get a picture. I wish she had been more agreeable earlier, as I got some decent pics of her tankmates, just havent had time to upload them yet. I need help to catch her. The QT tank is roughly 5' x 10' x 2'... trying to catch one tiny fish in that volume alone is impossible LOL.

 

[fishin4cars]

Saw the pics of the rest, they all look good. Too small to be showing eggs. Just FYI, My comets that were born this year are size of your largest baby koi and still very warm water here. I can't tell any are fat with eggs. The two for sure females are even pretty even bellied with the males right now. Kind of hard to believe that is what is going on. Glad to hear it's swimming and eating. that's a good sign.

 

[RoyalFeather]

Looks like babies in store for me then! Some are looking like they may be male/female, but not sure. Out of ten I should think so, though.

I have a lot of parrots feather in the pond in place of the yarn. Same thing I've done with my indoor fish.

 

[Waterbug]

The only thing I'd add to what Larkin has already said is the surest sign of a female being ready to spawn imo is males chasing her. They're the experts.

KH is about 160 & GH is about 120. Our usual PH is 7.6, or 7.4 if it had rained.

Hate to look a gift horse in the mouth...and I don't know what your pH normally is without the rain...but with 160 ppm KH you shouldn't really be seeing pH swings. It would make me wonder about whether the test kit was good or if there was a problem with aeration because high CO2 can drive down pH while KH stays up.

If the KH test is off, and KH is actually low, it could explain a fish swelling because of poor osmotic function (being are to balance fluid in the body).

I'm not saying anything is actually wrong, but the KH and pH numbers didn't add up to me.

 

[capewind]

Saw the pics of the rest, they all look good. Too small to be showing eggs. Just FYI, My comets that were born this year are size of your largest baby koi and still very warm water here. I can't tell any are fat with eggs. The two for sure females are even pretty even bellied with the males right now. Kind of hard to believe that is what is going on. Glad to hear it's swimming and eating. that's a good sign.

I thought too small too. I thought I read something about them being able to reproduce around 3" but have a hard time believing that. Cant find the original info I had read. I wouldnt venture to guess male/female at this size, but her belly looks exactly like some of our OLDER fish have looked close to spawning.

I have one small standard koi that we bought late in the season last year (Petsmart) that was still only 4-5" at the start of spring (now 6-7") that plumped with eggs twice this year, but given where I got her, just assumed she was small for her age. The absolutely largest of the comet babies are only 3.5"

 

[capewind]

The only thing I'd add to what Larkin has already said is the surest sign of a female being ready to spawn imo is males chasing her. They're the experts. Hate to look a gift horse in the mouth...and I don't know what your pH normally is without the rain...but with 160 ppm KH you shouldn't really be seeing pH swings. It would make me wonder about whether the test kit was good or if there was a problem with aeration because high CO2 can drive down pH while KH stays up. If the KH test is off, and KH is actually low, it could explain a fish swelling because of poor osmotic function (being are to balance fluid in the body). I'm not saying anything is actually wrong, but the KH and pH numbers didn't add up to me.

Normal for us is a consistent 7.6, and if we have had a fair amount of rain, it may drop to 7.4. We have had a lot of rain lately, so a low of 7.2 doesnt seem too bad.

I really do not understand KH/GH, that is hubby's department. Maybe the tests could be off. Could only get the combined test strips for the KH/GH locally. I did (when we got the strips) test with the other kits (liquid) for Ammonia, Nitrate, Nitrates and PH to compare those results, and they were consistent between the two kits.

I know with older fish to watch the boys (that is how I figured out who were the definate boys LOL) but wondering how young boys can show interest? AKA if they are too young to bother her, and IF she is infact carrying eggs, how to deal with it. I dont ever remember noticing anyone else's vent looking so puffy. Cant say I even look for that matter, but noticing it on this kid makes me wonder...

 

[capewind]

We may have more rain coming today. Maybe I should set a bowl outside to collect some water and see what the PH is? I know our tap water is only 7.0

 

[Waterbug]

That's what is kind of strange to me...your source water is soft, which isn't unusual for the east coast, rain water is very soft but your pond has perfect KH and GH.Maybe hubby is adjusting KH & GH?

Rain pH is tracked pretty well by government and universities which can save you some time. If you're wanting to test your test kit distilled water works pretty well imo.

 

[capewind]

I was going to say he is against chemicals, but then it dawned on me he gave me some crushed coral to put into the kiddie pool because the PH was low... There IS some crushed coral in the pond... would that solved your question?