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Hi Usman, Thanks for your response and video. I am not going for a full on koi pond but I do intend to keep koi in it. After the advice I have received so far this is what I am thinking.

1st line - Bottom drain - settlement chamber - pump - filter - back to pond
2nd line - Skimmer - pump - bog filter - back to pond

Does that make sense?

And that was probably a better description than my diagram :)
 

Meyer Jordan

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Hi Usman, Thanks for your response and video. I am not going for a full on koi pond but I do intend to keep koi in it. After the advice I have received so far this is what I am thinking.

1st line - Bottom drain - settlement chamber - pump - filter - back to pond
2nd line - Skimmer - pump - bog filter - back to pond

Does that make sense?

And that was probably a better description than my diagram :)

I would recommend the following adjustment to the flow pattern.

1st line - Bottom drain - settlement chamber - pump - bog filter - back to pond
2nd line - Skimmer - pump - biofilter - back to pond.

This way the cleaner water will be entering the 'bog'. It is much, much easier to clean a biofilter than it is a 'bog'.
 
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your pond will have 3000 gallons , you will need aprox 7000g/hour pump total , which u can divide in 2 pumps ie 4000+3000 g/h or 5000+2000 , larger pump for waterfall maybe and smaller for bog
 
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Brilliant thank you. The bottom drain will also have a aerator do I need to add for that?
 

Mmathis

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Sorry if I've missed something, as I admit I didn't read through all the answers..... But BD's work with external pumps. I didn't see a mention of what kind of pump you plan to use.
 
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For what it's worth....these things are very much forum dependent. Bogs are considered filters in this forum while in other forums they are not well thought of. Settlement chambers haven't been popular in higher end ponds for a long time. The question is how well something works. At the higher end people do a lot of testing to see if things work. In water gardens very little testing is done, very little data use to justify stuff. "I put XYZ into my pond and my pond is great, so everyone should use XYZ". Opinion and fact are often confused.

A bog is a settlement chamber...great at accumulating muck. Unfortunately they're impossible to clean (flush). I like a bog in a water garden for plants but I don't consider it a filter. Really the opposite of a filter as lots of stuff grows in the gravel and creates waste, more than is removed. Dig down into any bog that's been used for a year or two and you'll understand pretty fast.

Long ago (20-25 years) bogs were called "gravel filters" and "up flow filters". They fell out of favor pretty fast as testing showed they didn't work very well.

Vortex and other types of settlement chambers, and various pads (Skippy) were very popular 20, 30 years ago, many designs. Testing showed very effective.

Proper mechanical filtering is a multiple stage deal. Each stage removes smaller and smaller bit. Cleaning these is a big part of their design. It can get extreme. Doesn't sound like you want extreme. So why go there? Water gardens are fine without any mechanical filter. In Koi ponds mechanical is used so more fish can be added and owners often want the clearest possible water to view fish. In water gardens just plain clear is good enough for most people. Depends on what you want and length you're willing to go to get it.

Bottom drains...oh boy. In the water garden world bottom drains focus on the drain and it being on the bottom. In higher end ponds people see this as a system. Their are Tangential Pond Returns (TPRs) positioned around the pond to push debris to the drain, otherwise the drain only clears a small area around the drain. Same deal if you vacuum your living room by leaving the head in the middle of the room, very clean near the head, not so much everywhere else. You can sweep stuff to the head however.

Once sucked up where does the waste go? That's maybe the biggest rub. If waste collects in a settlement chamber (bog) it rots. What difference does it matter if it rots in a bog or in the bottom of the pond? Water quality suffers the same (although a bog grows more waste than non-bog). In a high end pond where max fish load is desired water quality is a big issue. In water gardens it's virtually never an issue. Perfectly fine to have some muck in the bottom of a pond or in a bog.

The current standard is to pair a bottom drain with a sieve filter. That removes waste from the water 24/7. After the sieve can be other types of filters if desired.

The question is what kind of pond do you want? Do you really need a bottom drain system? It doesn't sound to me like you really do. Why make it more complex than needed? IMO vacuuming works great. Leaf vacuum maybe once a month in summer and silt vac maybe once a year. Although if you leaf vac often enough (1 or 2 times a month) you may never need to silt vac. The pond itself acts as a settlement chamber. For more info here's my vacuuming page: http://www.waterbugdesign.com/pond/vac.html

I like skimmers. I make my own: http://www.waterbugdesign.com/pond/skimmer.html

I also like a catch basin the waterfall goes into to keep the pond surface still for better fish viewing and you never have foam on the water surface.
koibasin.jpg


Be really careful about info sources. Opinion that sounds like fact, experience? Or backed up with verifiable test data? It's the internet.
 

Meyer Jordan

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Sorry if I've missed something, as I admit I didn't read through all the answers..... But BD's work with external pumps. I didn't see a mention of what kind of pump you plan to use.

BDs will work with submersible pumps providing a sump to house the pump is plumbed into the flow circuit.
 

Meyer Jordan

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Really getting off the thread subject but even though 'bogs' serve as settlement chambers as @Waterbug noted, they can serve as effective means of filtration either phyto- or full bio-. providing sufficient mechanical filtration is provided for the removal of TSS (Total Suspended Solids). Constructed wetlands, the structures that 'bog' were designed after, are utilized for those express purposes with great efficiency and success. But as with any filter, mechanical or bio, periodic cleaning will be required.
 
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Efficient is also subjective. I personally don't see any connection between constructed wetlands for wastewater treatment and "bog" other than maybe the word bog and wetland might sound similar. The wetland construct was very similar to veggie filters, but not in scale. And scale is important in those systems.

I'd be interested to know where the idea of bog having been based on wetlands came from. That's not what I saw in forums when these were being first used, people were looking for cheap bio media. Pea gravel is cheap but testing showed they didn't work well as bio filters because of channeling and being anaerobic rather than the desired aerobic. Much of the hobby moved to Trickle Towers which is basically a above water bog, both being a pile of rocks/stones. Difference being submerged or not submerged. TT had the advantage of staying clean and being aerobic and so in testing were about 10x more efficient at bio than submerged bio filters. That test data can be found in other forums. And of course we found even better bio filters after that. Bottom line being all submerged bio filters have always tested way below above water bio filters.

As for mechanical, until debris is removed from the water column it is still in the pond. A bog collects debris but removal is very difficult. In the years I've read pond forums I can't remember anyone even trying. However I have removed a few bog filters in my day and they're as nasty as would be expected. So I could never call a bog a mechanical filter since nothing is actually removed. Plus the gravel and debris is a great environment for anaerobic bacteria and a whole microbe food chain which creates more waste than they consume.

Great for growing plants though. Love bogs. Mine in San Jose:
canna1.jpg

Canna is 8' tall. Never had such great Canna. Miss that.
 

Meyer Jordan

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As I mentioned in my opening sentence in Post #20, this is not the subject of this thread. If you would like to start a separate thread to discuss the relationship between 'bogs' and constructed wetlands, I would welcome the opportunity to discuss this.
 
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thers one drum filter is automatic and it removes waste out of the system periodically

in BD , u need to drain waste manually time to time so its out of system , until then its same

gravel filter is used as bog nowdays but its different and its kept clean to work (which IMO not possible unless u have filter before it) , it needs free flow through it usually from below pipe

i think real bog is not clean , it will contain mudy ground and plants etc can b gravel too and water runs from top to bottom , i have very wild bog it cant b kept clean and water enters from top as stream or trickle then goes deep and passes thru , i think bog can be said its all in one if u have roots gravel or sponges as media it can work as mechanical plus bio filter as well as settlement tank , u dont need to filter before bog if its properly made it will handle everything , waste will accumulate and rots or processed then consumed by plants or settle down in it
 
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@Waterbug - if the water that is fed into a "bog" is clear of debris, then where is all the debris you're talking about coming from? I can see some decomposing plant matter from roots and whatnot, but that's hardly the stuff of nightmares.

I did dig up a good portion of my bog last year - "Irises Gone Wild" is the name of my reality TV show - and found no smell, no build up of gunk or good, and the water was crystal clear. But my plants go crazy in my bog - see previous reference to irises - so clearly they are being fed from the stuff in the water that you can't see.

If anyone wants to know how deep your iris roots will go, I can answer that - deeper than you think! Don't turn your back on them - you'll be sorry!
 

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