Is it possible for Muratic Acid to do some real dmg to materials in the water ?

[crsublette]

Grrr. I actually should have titled this " Using Muratic Acid to lower pH " ....


My well water is very hard. Last API KH/GH test from yesterday came in at KH 179 and GH 268.5 and pH tested around 8~8.3.

My water is much like another fella's in a hydroponic forum. The fella has KH125, GH 250.6 and his pH tested around 7.6~7.8. His aquarium for the hydroponic garden is 1600 gallons. His tapwater comes in at 8.2~8.4 pH. His tapwater appears to be just like mine. He said he used 3 gallons of Muratic Acid to lower the KH down to just 125 !!! His process was adding 20 ounces every 3 days until he reached 7.6~7.8 pH. He stoped using it since he was concerned about the quantity of Muratic Acid he was dumping into his aquarium. The guy never stated what dillution of Muratic Acid he was using.

I am likely going to have to use a third of that, around 1 gallon, since my water feature is only 435 gallons instead of 1600 gallons. I really would like to experiment with this, try to get my water down to 7.5 pH and see how hard it is for me to keep it there.

I have stopped doing water changes. Only using my high KH well water to top off due to evaporation. Going to set up a catch basin for rain, IF it ever rains here, but I need to set it up first. I know the nitrification process will help to lower KH as well so I might not need to use as much rain water as I am thinking.


Anyone know of any problems Muratic Acid can create ?? such as any weakening of the pond liner or pump parts or plants or weakening any other material ?? I have heard this Muratic Acid can be some nasty strong stuff.

What is the best dillution of Muratic Acid for me to get ?? Muratic Acid is also called Hydrochloric Acid, correct ??

 

[crsublette]

Will the Muratic Acide screw up my fishless cycling ??

My cycling just finished a few days ago. I am still continuing daily ammonium dosing to keep the bacteria happy. I am thinking of taking my drip emitters off my well water outlet and put it in a 55 gallon drum or something smaller like 30 gallon drum if I can find a drum this small. Then, I was going to treat this top up water with the acid, make sure the pH has settled, then add this to the water feature. I'll do this until I finally get my rain catch system finished and if it finally rains for it.

 

[addy1]

That is nasty stuff, used it to clean a pool once, never again will I get near it. Don't know how to tell you how to figure out the best way to use it.

Here are a bunch of links on using it

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Muratic+Acid+for+lowering+ph+in+water

 

[crsublette]

Thanks. I will start reading them. I need to start doing stuff outside though soon, not enough hours in the day!! grr, wished I lived in Alaska during that period where sun is up for quite a while.

 

[crsublette]

Well, the forum thread at "of course, we must talk about hardness" has helped me. Answered all my questions. I think Waterbug linked it sometime ago. I am just now getting around to reading it.

I guess the stuff does not detrimentally affect materials such as pumps etc otherwise figure there would be a note somewhere. Guess my question is answered!! :razz:

Looks like de-ionized RO water or rain water is the best, safer route for my 435 gallon water feature to lower the pH

 

[adavisus]

You might figure how to use hydrochloric acid by trying it on a 3gal sample of the water in a bucket, calculating how much it takes to lower ph to a useable level

Arriving at a dose rate per gallon will help estimate how realistic buying and using acid may be

Regards, andy
http://www.flickr.com/photos/21940871@N06/
http://swglist.wordpress.com/

 

[Waterbug]

The issue with using Muratic Acid is the handling part first, and then also being able to perform basic math and measuring. It can blind you, bad burns, damage to clothes, etc. Sadly I'd say most people shouldn't use Muratic Acid as basic science, reading comprehension and math skills are really far below what's needed in most of the population. It's harder than ordering pizza.

And many people seem to think they can see into the future and "know" there's got going to be an accident so they "know" there's no need for protective equipment. Protective equipment is for morons. Strangely they seem to suck at predicting the lottery numbers? Plus lots of people think there's some super natural being looking out for them so handling acid in cutoffs and flip-flops is perfectly safe.

So if you think you're smart enough to handle acid without protection, or it can be dumped into a pond without measuring, you're not actually smart enough to use it...but you have no way to know that. It's the "I'm too dumb to know I'm dumb" paradox.

If you're afraid to use it and worried you could get hurt you'd probably be OK using it.

I use Muratic Acid in metal working and sometimes in concrete work. I make sure my skin is covered (just regular cloth, not great but OK for small splashes) and I wear long rubber gloves and a full face shield (way more comfortable than goggles too). It has my full attention when working with it. The dog or small kids are not "helping" me. I keep a 5 gal pail of clean water close by in case I need it and too wash off the gloves before removal whether or not I "think" I've gotten acid on them.

The flumes can be harmful, even deadly. I try to work when there's a breeze. Once in the bottom of a pond the flumes almost caused me to pass out. So I added a new rule, never work alone when doing a big job like that. And go slower, let the flumes dissipate before creating more.

I like the idea of using a barrel. Solves a lot of issues.

The question of why you want pH at 7.5 is a whole other can of worms.

 

[crsublette]

The issue with using Muratic Acid is the handling part first, and then also being able to perform basic math and measuring. It can blind you, bad burns, damage to clothes, etc. Sadly I'd say most people shouldn't use Muratic Acid as basic science, reading comprehension and math skills are really far below what's needed in most of the population. It's harder than ordering pizza.

Well, if I can spell my name, then I should be smart enough to properly handle acid ... J - A - R - L - S ... damnit! (( hehe, just having fun :razz: ))

Very good advice Waterbug. A fella can never be too careful, ya learn this quick when working in high danger zone jobs like on a farm.

I have my private applicator chemical license for agriculture, but this is not too say I will not screw up! Ya can never be too safe when your life can potentially be at risk!


---------------------------------------------------


Yeah, going to take a different route so hopefully I will not even have to use, or not use much, Muratic acid.


I ordered a 55 gallon opaque black polyethylene drum with lid, also FDA approved for food storage, so I am starting out with a clean barrel.

I bought a 150 gallon per day customized 5 stage RO deionizer system, not as expensive as ya may think, to lower the KH in particular and will also lower my GH. I would use rain if it actually rained!! It would be nice to get rid of these dang limestome deposits on my rock in my stream created by evaporating, high GH, hard water.

Also bought 16 ounces of 8.7% dilluted Muratic Acid. I stll have some pH down product, containing phosphoric acid, that I will try first instead of the Muratic acid.

Going to set the system up where my water supply and RO comes into the barrel. I think I will start with 75% well water, 25% RO water, and then use a tiny bit of Muratic Acid to further drop the KH if it needs it. Once all the numbers are right, then I will use a small pump to pressurize my drip emitters going into the water feature, change out the emitters, so that the water slowly (over 8 hours or so) adds to the water feature.

I know Koiphen recommends 100 KH but I am going to stick close to around 120 and GH under 200. I think this should be around 7.6 pH or so.

When the KH drops down to 100~110 or so due to rain and nitrification cycle, I guess this would be around 7.1~7.3 pH. Then, I will slowly add my new water in the barrel to bring the pH up. So, I will always have a barrel full and ready to add when it is needed. I will have some baking soda on hand, using Koiphen's instructions for application, in case the KH drops near to 80.

Not going to have Koi. My water feature too small for the amount of KH I will need for the nitrification to compensate for all the waste these guys create when they get big. So, gonna start with 7 or so combination of shunbunkin and sarasa small comets and won't feed them much so they take much longer to get big. Hopefully their waste won't cause the nitrification to consume too much KH.

The question of why you want pH at 7.5 is a whole other can of worms.

After reading that link ya mentioned about hardness from Koiphen and other material I have read, a 7.5 pH sounds safe as long as I monitor KH after rains (if it ever rains) to keep it above 100 and use baking soda for emergencies if KH drops near to 80.

I know I have read how even a pH of 10 will support fish and plants in the right conditions; however, it is a stretch to say a pH of 9 or 10 is recommended.

Our farm often adds Sulfur and other liquid acidifers to try to lower the pH to help our crops, so, meh, I figure it should help my pond plants too and hopefully, in partcular, my trumpet plants.

I am also told the lower pH will help the fish's color.


Is there anything else I should know, precautions, tips, tricks ??

This should be a fun experiment.

 

[Waterbug]

Sounds like you understand this as well as I do, so I don't have much to add. It's like you said, pH can be kept lower as long as it's kept on top of it, you clearly understand the issues. I don't run into many posters willing to do a little research. Refreshing.

On the side note of plants and pH...For the past year or so I've been talking with local gardeners interested in creating aquaponic systems and I was concerned about high pH and nutrient plant up take. I never ran into any info on whether people mess with the pH in aquaponics. I know people do in hydroponics, but in aquaponics we'd have fish, and even shrimp, so messing with the pH isn't as safe. But maybe the bullet just needs to be bit and try to maintain a lower pH.

I've only ever run ponds with high KH because, well, I'm lazy. There are people on Koiphen who run KH at 300 ppm with impressive Koi imo, But many do look down their noses on high KH.

I grew up on a farm. My main reasons for leaving that life was seeing all the carnage around me. Really dangerous. But then most farmers where I lived weren't really into the whole learning thing. When I was in high school NY passed a law that passing a simple test on handling pesticides was going to be required to buy pesticides. Half the farmers couldn't pass and that's when it first came out many couldn't read or write. I passed and that summer my primary job was going around buying pesticides for farmers. Beat hoeing.