Koi concern

Discussion in 'Fish & Koi Talk' started by Hev, Jan 29, 2018.

  1. Hev

    Hev

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    hi, I am hoping someone with koi experience can tell me please why my koi who is around a15” long has developed a large oval shape around his middle. He seems to be floating on his side a lot at the bottom of the pond and I am concerned.
    I have had him for around 2 years and he was given to me by a gentleman who was emptying his pond and I believe he is around 10 years old.
    I have about 30 fish and 10 of these are koi and he is the largest by far and so it is worrying to see him floating like this for past 2 months.
    Any advice would be great fully appreciated
    Heather
     
    Hev, Jan 29, 2018
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  2. Hev

    sissy sissy

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    We can help if we knew something more about your pond .Like size and depth ,how many gallons and do you test the water and what kind of filter All these things are important to fish care .Also koi need lots of oxygen ,I know i have koi .You may or may not be over stocked .The biggest fish always die first and this could be just a ign of something worse .What also is the temperature of your pond water
     
    sissy, Jan 29, 2018
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  3. Hev

    mrsclem mrsclem

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    Hello and welcome to GPF! Is it possible to post a picture of your fish so we can see exactly what the problem is?
     
    mrsclem, Jan 29, 2018
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  4. Hev

    Hev

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    Thank you for responses and I will get all of the information you have asked tomorrow and take a picture of him. On the testing water, no I can honestly say never tested the water what am I testing for? I will say we’ve had the pond around 4 years and had many many babies over the years so I’m guessing the water is fine. I lost quite a few fish few months back (ghastly heron) but last year it appears that there are around another 40 babies In addition to my current fish which are a mix of gold fish and koi.
     
    Hev, Jan 29, 2018
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  5. Hev

    Dave 54

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    Hi @Hev Floating on his side and huge oval stomach , I have a feeling that your koi may well have dropsy which is putting pressure on his swim bladder causing him to loose equilibrium in the water and sink to the bottom and onto his side .
    It being winter there isn't really allot you can do for it at the moment and it may well be that it has been left to late to do anything , it is recommended though he is taken out and placed in a QT facility .
    There are three types of dropsy bacterial viral and lastly parasite which is rarely seen , it is recommended you remove the koi from the pond then slowly raise the temperature of the QT facility to around 25c over time at a rate of 1c every day or two.
    Adding salt to the water of your QT facility may help but this may well have also been brought about by organ failure due to old age .
    It being the wrong time of year and the amount of time he has been on his side (2 months ) , i would suggest doing the kindest thing for him and consider Euthanasia by use of MS222 anaesthesia or Oil of cloves at a rate of around ten ml per gallon of your QT facility .
    Don't worry Dropsy shouldn't effect any other koi in your pond but good husbandry water changes and testing your water plus maintaining your filtration etc can help prevent it happening again .
    Sorry for the bad news:cry:

    Dave 54
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
    Dave 54, Jan 29, 2018
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  6. Hev

    Hev

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    Dave
    Thanks for response which has made me feel so sad and I feel bad for not putting something on here sooner but I was hoping he was just under the weather but I now realize it may be terrible outcome reading you’re response. I will take a picture of him and post it on here before I do anything
    Thanks again
    Heather
     
    Hev, Jan 30, 2018
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  7. Hev

    Dave 54

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    Hev pictures as long as they are of a good resolution do help in diagnoses but I'm pretty sure of what it is however I would like to view him to confirm it
    To expand your knowledge of koi health issues I have a list of koi and fish health books that are pa
    rt of my own library of books .
    Please feel free to use the list which has titles, ISBN numbers and Authors names

    https://www.gardenpondforum.com/articles/our-updated-library-with-reviews.11/


    Dave 54
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
    Dave 54, Jan 30, 2018
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  8. Hev

    Hev

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    0BBE5DCE-E56D-49CD-9712-EF927BB85C75.jpeg C4668146-BD10-4CD5-8880-DBC6FD8CDF33.jpeg 52111019-CB39-4CDE-99D5-B35FD62FE2BD.jpeg 05A7B7DF-247D-45FE-90D5-25D684E8F5CB.jpeg
     
    Hev, Jan 30, 2018
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  9. Hev

    Hev

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    I hope these are clear enough these were taken this morning
    Heather
     
    Hev, Jan 30, 2018
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  10. Hev

    mrsclem mrsclem

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    Hev, hopefully Dave will be on the site soon. It looks like the scales are sticking out like a pinecone. That would be dropsy. A lot of pond owners say my water is clear and I haven't changes anything so why test my water. Your fish change from year to year. They grow, have babies, etc. Even if you have never had a problem, its a good idea to test your water a couple of times a year so you know what is normal and head off a problem. Hopefully Dave will be able to give some treatment ideas. Invest in an API test kit for ph, ammonia , nitrites & nitrates.
     
    mrsclem, Jan 30, 2018
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  11. Hev

    Dave 54

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    Not all koi with dropsy pine cone but from what I can see there is a definate build up of fluid inside this koi ., I've ruled out the fish being egg bound as they normally re absorb them , there is one other possibility and I've come across plus autopsied which was a huge build up of fat which as the results showed had acctually ruptured the swim bladder with the same results .
    It turned out the koi had been feed the wrong food (non koi food Heavy with protien) and belonged to a former club member of the Plymouth section who had bought it from a lady who's husband was the koi keeper and who had died the year before.:- Copy of IM000197.JPG Copy of IM000199.JPG Copy of IM000201.JPG Copy of IM000202.JPG
    A tad grotesque I know @Hev but normally this is the only way to find out what went or was wrong with the koi

    Dave 54
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
    Dave 54, Jan 30, 2018
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  12. Hev

    Tula

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    I see a bit of "pine coning" in the abdomen area . Is a tumor also a possibility? In my opinion, whatever the diagnosis, a humane euthanasia would be the kindest thing to do for this poor koi.
     
    Tula, Jan 30, 2018
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  13. Hev

    Hev

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    Thanks mrsclem
    Well I will definitely invest in one of those kits you don’t think about the changes as you say babies which we’ve had 3 years in a row and growing as my white koi I bought 4 years ago has just grown sooo much. I will wait for Dave to advise but I’m obviously thinking the worst now.
    Heather
     
    Hev, Jan 30, 2018
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  14. Hev

    Hev

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    Oh Dave thanks but somehow i can’t possibly cut him open is there somewhere that will do this for me do you know ?
    Dave the euthanasia you mentioned with using oil cloves can I ask how quick this method is ?
    Heather
     
    Hev, Jan 30, 2018
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  15. Hev

    Hev

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    Fave
    Sorry can I ask asyou mention non koi food we have mixture of goldfish , comets and koi so we mix normal and koi food is this correct thing to do or feed them all koi food ?
     
    Hev, Jan 30, 2018
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  16. Hev

    Tula

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    Tula, Jan 30, 2018
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  17. Hev

    Angel

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    can we not imbed pics like that but keep them so we have to click on. just sat down with lunch to look over and well i am not hungry.
     
    Angel, Jan 30, 2018
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  18. Hev

    Dave 54

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    Very sorry for upsetting your dinner but when you've been keeping for 30 years you learn to do autopsy's to find out why the poor fish died to avoid it happening again to any of your other fish not that we like doing it .
    @Angel You may be upset by the photo's but I'll bet you eat fish, I do and so do many people , we eat them without a thought about the trauma they themselves go through to be on our dinner plates ?
    Being a former deep sea fisherman I do and it isn't very nice, please buy and read "Do fish feel Pain" by Professor Victoria Braithwaite ISBN 9780199 551200 its quite an eye opener and makes me ashamed of my former Job
    @Tula thanks for mentioning the tumour (sorry still not quite up to speed as of yet)

    Dave 54
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2018
    Dave 54, Jan 31, 2018
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  19. Hev

    Angel

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    nah i get it. i eat meat. but i don't do the "dirty work"
     
    Angel, Jan 31, 2018
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  20. Hev

    Dave 54

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    True @Angel true and as I said when I read that book it upset me greatly , I'd never given t a thought until then .
    Now we all think of fish as slow and unfeeling, with brains so primitive that they are capable only of simple behaviour but recent evidence challenges this view, with the professor being at the forefront of research into fish behavior and perception, here she discusses what we know about the ability of fish to feel pain and suffer.
    She argues that the care we accord to mammals and birds should be extended to fish, with this conclusion having far reaching and often surprising implications for our dealings with fish.
    Professor Braithwaite along with a team of researchers says that indeed fish do feel pain with her research she also gives fish cognative abilities seen previously in only a handful of animals.
    Chimpanzees , lions dolphins and hawks are all accorded substantial protection in countries , .
    I this book she recounts fascinating experiments and ingenious experiments , Like in many other topical debates the fish pain question needs sound science for informed debate but it can't be resolved by science alone both ethics and philosophy have role too.
    The professor sets the science in the context of the ethical issues surrounding our interactions with animals, she raises questions about animal welfare asking why it took us so long to ask whether fish have the capacity to suffer and where to draw the line when it comes to which animals to protect.
    Science she argues, suggests ways to balance fish welfare with the benefits that us humans get from fish.

    For the humble fish keeper it means the best in our treatment of them, regular maintenance to their ponds and for us to test water the ponds water parameters on a regular basis.
    I see i all too often that people view fish keeping as its ok for fish to die as they are a throwaway commodity and we can always buy new, (I hate the idea of feeder fish seeing it as cruel and uneccessary ) but that's my own opinion ..
    This is far away from the truth Koi live upwards of 80+ years and goldfish live upwards of 40+ years and as such we are responsible for a life span that is often on a par with our own, when we die we are given an autopsy and is the main reason I give fish them also, I have one koi 30 years + years of age if it passed I would be mortified yes but I would want to find out the reason it died wouldn't you ?
    I hope this tempts you into buying this book its quit an eye opener

    Dave 54
     
    Dave 54, Jan 31, 2018
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