Lets talk about Trickle Filter, ways to hide them, and Questions

[crsublette]

From what I have read, the biggest sell points are:
1) speeding the entire nitrification process especially the conversion of Nitrates to Nitrogen
2) tremendously oxygenates the water
3) recovers fast after medical pond treatments and thorough cleanings

Since good bacteria require at least 7mg/L of dissolve oxygen to process a small amount of Ammonia at once, the higher oxygenation will allow for bigger, bulkier bacteria colonies when wanting to overstock a pond.

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Trickle tower are fed with a gravity flow from top, flow is fed by pump at bottom, water is pre-filtered. Bakki Shower (there are a ton of pictures, may take a while to load) provides some good examples of the various DIY tickle towers. Trickle towers can be wide or high. If ya don't want a high one, then make it wide and vice versa. The water coming out at the bottom then feeds into the pond or you could use an automatic on/off inline booster pump to push the water if ya want to put the tower somewhere else or like in a filter pit.

Trickle tower water must be pre-filtered unless ya want to clean your bio-filters more often.

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Going to build one like a rock column with hanging plants growing around it next to my water features resevoir or stream or waterfall. I am aiming to have it look like a stone column in the jungle where plants are just drapping down it. Plants will be put into their own partition on the column and a shade/wind block tarp will be used to keep the plants foliage,etc, from blowing into the bio-media. Also, the tarp will shade the water from the sun; I may put multiple layers.

Going to build it so I can easily take the biomedia trays out during the winter. In the winter, I bet I could just dump the bio-media into a small 33 gallon barrel full of pond water, with an aerator at the bottom to make a fluidized bio-filter, take it wherever to be used during the winter.

This is just all in my head right now; not for long though hopefully !! I will definitely share the progress once I get started.

Don't see why folk think these trickle towers have to be ugly plastic structures. Just takes a bit more effort to be pretty. If ya want to be stuck with a big barrel that ya hide, then I bet ya could build a trickle tower inside the 55 gallon barrel.

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Any thoughts? More info? Tips/tricks?

Does each trickle tower tray need to hold a small volume of water? answer will determine how many holes I create at the bottom of each tray.

 

[Waterbug]

2) tremendously oxygenates the water

I'd just scale back a little from "tremendously", no reason to over sell. Just gives ammo to people who like to trash ideas just because it upsets their own personal dogma.

They do maximize gas exchange including O2, but water can only carry a certain amount. The O2 level is mainly localized to the filter, they don't have a huge effect on pond O2 level. Stirring the pond increases overall O2.

3) recovers fast after medical pond treatments and thorough cleanings

I hadn't heard this before. Can you explain more? Thanks.

Trickle tower are fed with a gravity flow that is pre-filtered and fed by a pump. Koiphen Bakki Shower

Technically there is a difference between a Trickle Tower and a Bakki Shower, and if you want to be really technical, there is a difference between Bakki Shower and a more generic Shower Filter. IMO a Trickle Tower is a single pile of media, no trays. A Bakki Shower has multiple levels of trays and a Bakki specifically would use a ceramic media, while other media is used in the more generic Shower Filters. I like to use specific terms only to make it easier to understand what people are talking about.

I think Bakki was inspired by Trickle Towers since TTs were around first. Showers were an improvement. But basically the same principle.

Trickle tower water must be pre-filtered unless ya want to clean your bio-filters more often.

I don't think that's true. One of the benefits of these filters are they're self cleaning. Some crap does get trapped in spots, not sure pre filtering would really have much of an impact. But generally I think people informed enough to choose these filters would also know about the benefits of pre filtering so the two do seem to go hand in hand.

Going to build it so I can easily take the biomedia trays out during the winter. In the winter, I bet I could just dump the bio-media into a small 33 gallon barrel full of pond water, with an aerator at the bottom to make a fluidized bio-filter, take it wherever to be used during the winter.

Nitrifying bacteria convert nothing at 39F, and very little below 50F.

Don't see why folk think these trickle towers have to be ugly plastic structures. Just takes a bit more effort to be pretty. If ya want to be stuck with a big barrel that ya hide, then I bet ya could build a trickle tower inside the 55 gallon barrel.

Amen.

Does each trickle tower tray need to hold a small volume of water? answer will determine how many holes I create at the bottom of each tray.

In a prefect world there would be no standing water in the bottom. However a little bit does help spread the "shower" for the next tray. It is a little tricky. Better to have too few holes and add more later to match flow.

Any thoughts? More info? Tips/tricks?

Watch KH levels. The bio conversion requires ammonia, O2 and carbon. Keepers of high fish loads have to add a surprising amount of baking soda to keep KH levels up.

A downside to shower filters is the noise. They can be loud and not a good loud. TTs are much quieter.

Both showers and TTs, but showers more so, can drop the temp in a pond in winter. Most people fix this by not running them in winter or placing them in a heated garage.

 

[HARO]

Speeding the conversion of nitrates to nitrogen???
John

 

[crsublette]

Well, the terms "trickle tower" and "shower" appear to be synonymous when researching on the Google. I think that most often when "trickle tower" is written, they actually mean "shower tower".

I read that the ability for bacteria restart quicker due to higher O2 availability allows faster recovery from pond treatments and cleanings due to the amount of O2 bacteria require when consuming ammonia. Koiphen forum had some good threads. Grr, I thought I had the threads bookmarked.

I read that pre-filtering is the best if ya do not want to clean the media and there is technically no such thing as "self cleaning" or "maintenance free". I read that if ya don't pre-filter then the debris will just clog the bio-media creating excess anaerobic bacteria in the bio-media and creates channeling. Only pre-filter I have seen that is actually "self cleaning, maintenance free" is the Oase rotary drum filter with all the accompanying electronics and crazy expensive.

Yeah, the Bakki showers use that "best filter media in the world" called Bacteria House. I could not find anywhere in the USA where this ceramic media could be bought. The closest ceramic media I could find was called Supra (alfagrog).

Psychrophilic bacteria strains, cellulase producing bacteria, and other enzymes active during Winter. Then, there are all those gases that were produced and must be allowed to escape during the Winter.

A downside to shower filters is the noise. They can be loud and not a good loud. TTs are much quieter.

Sound of rushing water really wouldn't bug me I think since this is a very foreign sound where I live. The noise of the water is likely dependent upon the fall distance between each tray. Ya make it sound like it is going to be like Niagra Falls.

Both showers and TTs, but showers more so, can drop the temp in a pond in winter. Most people fix this by not running them in winter or placing them in a heated garage.

Yeah, I read that these only run during winter if the water is heated. I wouldn't risk it.

Speeding the conversion of nitrates to nitrogen???

Something about the water being more open which allow the nitrogen gases escape more easily. From the testimonials I have read, many have mentioned a dramatic drop in Nitrates after a shower filter was implemented.

There is no official study I have yet to find, just testimonials.

Funny thing I have found about this hobby is that testimonials never tell the full story, but I do the best with what given until better explanations are known.

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Yeah, I want to seriously overstock my 435gallon water feature and I am told the only restriction to this is filtration and maintaining proper KH. Bio-Filtration will be a Nexus w/Answer or a fluidized bed filter in combo with a shower tower. For additional mechanical filtration, I might build a small sieve filter otherwise I may just stick with my pressurized filter. For the KH, I am likely going to do water changes from my hard water and a slow release product to maintain the KH. I also want to avoid the 55gallon or 33gallon barrel scenario and the accompanying flushing. I am going to be using the constant water trickle change system from a barrel where my hard water is cut with some di-RO water so I can maintain a lower pH hovering around 7.5; I bet I can figure a way to automate this with simple timers and float or continuity switches. If KH drops too dramatically, then I will likely need to do higher water changes and more slow release KH product.

 

[Waterbug]

There is no official study I have yet to find, just testimonials.

For studies I look in the aquaculture field. Lots more grant money for aquaculture studies than Koi ponds. The info from these can be relevant. But even the testimonials at a place like Koiphen normally get a good review by peers. Way better than the social pond forums where people just say "I have X, my pond is perfect" and get defensive if anyone dare question outrageous claims.

 

[JohnHuff]

It is my understanding that trickle towers:
a: one tower of media
b: slow flow
However it is interesting that when you Google TT's, most of the towers are enclosed in pipes, in which case they're gonna limit the air/water exchange. Some have an aerator inside, but not many.

Shower filters:
a: media is held in containers one on top of another
b: high water flow with water crashing from level to level

Bakki shower:
Same as shower filter except contains Bacteria house media

None of the above are self cleaning. If you pump in water with a lot of gunk, it's gonna block the water flow. The whole idea between the both of them is that they both allow a lot of air/water exchange which facilitates the action of the aerobic bacteria. (On a side note, the Norm Meck article that WB linked to recently says that 90% of the bacteria in a bio filter are heterotrophs and not the aerobic bacteria.) Also, the shower filters are supposed to gas off the nitrates, a notion that some have pooh-poohed.

I think you can build them sideways if you want to hide them.

 

[Waterbug]

It is my understanding that trickle towers:
a: one tower of media
b: slow flow

Shower filters:
a: media is held in containers one on top of another
b: high water flow with water crashing from level to level

Bakki shower:
Same as shower filter except contains Bacteria house media

That's been my understanding too.

None of the above are self cleaning. If you pump in water with a lot of gunk, it's gonna block the water flow. The whole idea between the both of them is that they both allow a lot of air/water exchange which facilitates the action of the aerobic bacteria.

Maybe I should say self cleaning enough. Yes crap will collect in spots. But water washing over plastic, smooth stone, stays "clean". The biggest issue is not crap coming from the pump but from stuff growing on the media. Bio film, algae all make the surface less than perfect. Some get really bad algae.

And the stuff that collects in nook and crannies is going to be tiny, way smaller than even the best mechanical filter would remove.

But I think it's not an important point since most serious systems are going to have some pre filtering. So I think if a person wants to believe a pre filter is a requirement, no harm.

(On a side note, the Norm Meck article that WB linked to recently says that 90% of the bacteria in a bio filter are heterotrophs and not the aerobic bacteria.)

Not sure why this is important?

 

[JohnHuff]

WB, what do you feel about the TT's which are totally enclosed? Do you think they should have more airflow?

The Norm Meck comment just an observation that almost no one ever mentions heterotrophic bacteria when they talk about TT's, yet supposedly it's all about the aerobic bacteria, what do you think about that? Is Norm Meck correct?

 

[crsublette]

Yeah, I have seen the trickle towers that are fairly open where bio-media is only held in be a fencing looking material. My big concern with this is water loss due to 20~35+ mph winds.

 

[Waterbug]

WB, what do you feel about the TT's which are totally enclosed? Do you think they should have more airflow?

Ya know way back when Dr Roddy Conrad was trying to get people to consider TTs on Koiphen I always thought people were going a bit far in thinking a TT has to be totally open or even that air blowers were needed. For sure I never saw anyone test the theory. And the people saying these things did seem that credible to me. They seemed more like people who read that TT are better because they have more O2 and assume adding more O2 makes these even "more better". Pile on the better. Next thing you know people are adding oxygen tanks.

My thinking... air contains about 1,331,000 mg of O2 per liter at standard temperature and pressure (my math may not be right). Kind of normal water would contain about 10 mg of O2 per liter. Something like 100,000 times more O2 in air than water. So to me the concept of a TT needing good air circulation is not something I would assume is true. Even with very poor air circulation there seems to be plenty of O2.

On the other hand of course it does no harm to engineer a reasonable air supply.

Shower Filters approach it another way and increase the gas exchange by getting more water surface to air contact. Not getting more air into the filter but more O2 into the water. Which I assume is why Shower filters are even better.

The Norm Meck comment just an observation that almost no one ever mentions heterotrophic bacteria when they talk about TT's, yet supposedly it's all about the aerobic bacteria, what do you think about that? Is Norm Meck correct?

I assume Norm is correct or in the ballpark. There is such a huge amount of dead organic matter in a pond that I'd have to assume heterotrophic is by far the largest population of bacteria.

I think heterotrophic bacteria in a TT is just a side note, kind of unrelated to the purpose of a TT. Apparently nitrobacteraceae can get a foot hold on a TT based on the ammonia and nitrite conversion, so I assume it's not a perfect environment for heterotrophic.

That's where I wish Norm could have been able to go further. No one has been able to come up with a reliable way to grow heterotrophic bacteria that killed single cell algae. It's very possible I think that the key ingredient is good old muck. That would be a rich environment for heterotrophic bacteria. But rather than just sitting at the bottom of a pond doing nothing, what if it's in a gravel bog? Water and algae would be pushed very close to heterotrophic bacteria hot beds, algae cells could even be trapped for a while and more vulnerable to attack. Plus much more O2 even if way less than a TT. So my completely unproven theory is that muck, in the right environment, could be what clears a pond, or enables heterotrophic bacteria to clear a pond. There has to be some trigger that causes heterotrophic bacteria to kill algae.

Strangely this is the second filter I've found, at least in theory, where muck plays an important role. My fabric filter required varied suspended particles in the water in order to remove the even smaller particles.

Maybe someday I'll sell muck in a bottle.

 

[Waterbug]

Yeah, I have seen the trickle towers that are fairly open where bio-media is only held in be a fencing looking material. My big concern with this is water loss due to 20~35+ mph winds.

I've seen people hang tarps on the outside to reduce wind. Kind of ghetto looking.

 

[crsublette]

Your onto something about the muck, not theoretical either. I read an article talking about an "aged muck test". It was talking about how older ponds have fewer problems.

Muck in a bottle likely no different than the act of taking filter squeegees from an older pond to jumpstart the cycling of a new pond. Help to jumpstart your pond by shoveling a few scoops of aged muck.

I've seen people hang tarps on the outside to reduce wind. Kind of ghetto looking.

Would be by just throwing it on there

 

[Waterbug]

Your onto something about the muck, not theoretical either. I read an article talking about an "aged muck test". It was talking about how older ponds have fewer problems.

I'd like to read that. Link or any search term clues you can remember?

Muck in a bottle likely no different than the act of taking filter squeegees from an older pond to jumpstart the cycling of a new pond. Help to jumpstart your pond by shoveling a few scoops of aged muck.

I'm thinking it isn't just the bacteria. Assuming Norm was right and the bacteria responsible for killing algae is some common species of heterotrophic bacteria, then they'd already be in everyone's pond, and not everyone's pond is clear. So to me there has to be at least one other mechanism needed to enable this. Perhaps muck is the food that allows a higher concentration of bacteria, and therefore a higher concentration of the killer chemical, and you'd need to bring algae in contact with it.

All that leads me to bogs, but I've heard about this happening other ways. Way back, I remember a thread where I think Greg Bickal had a new bright green algae bloom. He installed a stream and the pond cleared in a few days. He didn't install the stream to clear the water, just serendipity. And of course TT and Shower Filters were inspired by streams. But no one has been able to figure out and prove what process enables water clearing to happen. Adding a TT doesn't clear water 100% of the time.

Macro algae...
This all keeps me thinking back to string algae. I once threw a hand full of string algae into a small shallow green pond that was full of potted plants and was surprised that the pond was clear the next day. No pump in the pond. I tried repeating the experiment but results were hit and miss. Sometimes the string algae died. But never was I able to grow both healthy string algae and single cell algae in the same pond at the same time. One would always die.

Back when TTs were first popular I saw a bunch of them with string algae growing on the outside. The owners would say there was none in the pond, the koi ate it all. They attributed clear water to the TT. Norm didn't mention macro algae I don't think in his article. There are a lot of studies on allelochemicals produced by marine algae to kill each other, and I assume this is true for freshwater algae.

So could this invisible chemical actually be coming from macro algae and not bacteria? I always assumed it was a combination. But of all the cases I hear of a pond clearing suddenly macro algae fits better than bacteria.

For example, "I added plants to my pond and the pond cleared". Of course the plants get the credit, but what about the macro algae that is certainly attached to the plant. Many of these cases were people looking to fix their new problem, string algae which they never had before. The standard reasons given for plants clearing a pond, starving the algae of nutrients and/or light, have been very easy to disprove.

Adding stream would promote new macro algae and I don't think would be a great environment for heterotrophic bacteria. In a green pond light is blocked making it harder for macro algae to start but the thin water in a sunny stream would be perfect. It makes sense to me the macro algae would produce the largest amount of allelochemicals when it first starts growing because that's when they would be most needed.

TT filter commonly have different macro algae on and in them.

Macro algae just always seems to be a player in a clear pond.

I think for my next pond build I'll create at least two identical setups to allow for some basic experiments. The last time I did experiments I had a heck of time growing green water algae, but now I think I understand that better. I also have a good source of water with algae which will help. It's a question I've always wanted to know more about and it doesn't seem like macro algae has ever been considered a reason for clear water.

 

[crsublette]

Some interesting stuff about macroalgae. An algae that is actually a pretty look'n plant. I find interesting how they say "macroalgae thrive in waters that receive nutrient polution" and then further defines "nutrient pollution". Heh, did some more reading about "macroalgae care" where they state macroalgae are huge consumers of nitrates and phosphorus.

There is some algae growing on the side of a few of my river rocks and the algae is a neon green, very bright green, actually quite pretty. I wonder if this is a macroalgae.

I'd like to read that. Link or any search term clues you can remember?

Ugh, I have my browser history and cache wiped everytime the program closes so my search history is always empty. Spent a few minutes to look for it before giving up.

I found it while I was doing some reading about how ammonia is processed during winter, cold water temperatures.

 

[Waterbug]

I didn't know macroalgae was a single word and I never considered using the term microalgae. Will from now on, less typing. I've always defined macroalgae as any multiple cell algae, but now I looked up the meaning. Not so easy to find a definition. One was that macroalgae can be seen with the eye. That would work for me.

Wish there was more info on freshwater algae. Don't know why so much research has been done on marine algae.