location of winter circulation pump?

[mailman62]

last year I placed a pump at botton of pond ( aprox 3.5 ft) directing flow at surface to keep open from iceing over, is there anything wrong with placing at bottom? no problems last winter and it was a bad one here in rhode island

 

[addy1]

I have read that it stirs up the warmer water at the bottom. I have mine around 2 foot deep. The deepest part of my pond is 5 foot

 

[sissy]

I always place mine on top of a crate at the higher end of my pond which is 3 feet deep and lower end is a little over 4 feet deep .Only thing I did different this year from last year is I wired it to the crate because last year Aggie my biggest koi knocked the pump side ways and the pump was pumping the water out of the pond .Good gosh it got cold hear today and I unplugged one of my pumps and plugged in the pond heater as winds are brutal tonight

 

[addy1]

Darn cold here too, and back up to the 50's by saturday, it can't seem to make up its mind to be winter or not.

 

[sissy]

This is really a weird winter for sure as by saturday here they say 60 and with the wind chills it is only 17 degrees now .good gosh it is cold freezing my butt off ,well at least I will loose a few pounds that way LOL .I had to turn up the heat .

 

[Waterbug]

A pump placed anywhere will mix the entire water column to a uniform temperature. Only when the pond is allowed to ice over will the water temperature stratify becoming 39F at the bottom and 32F at the top. So it wouldn't matter if the pump is at the bottom, top or in between.

So keeping the ice open will normally reduce the temperature of the water to below 39F. Pretty hard to tell which is a bigger risk. Gas exchange is an issue but I think its danger is greatly over hyped in Water Gardens compared to the danger of lower water temps. When you consider the O2 need of fish at 39F, the amount of O2 held by 39F water, and that almost all bacteria have shut down there is really very little danger in a lack of gas exchange. Depends on the pond and fish load of course, but most Water Gardens can go weeks iced over and the fish will be better off as compared to keeping them in 33F water for weeks which is an actual threat.

 

[DrCase]

That all makes good sense Waterbug
If it gets real cold here i shut it down and don't worry about it 30 days is about the longest i have ever been iced over
I have worked in a tee shirt the last 2 days and its gonna be warmer tomorrow

 

[addy1]

Last winter we were iced over for approximately 3 months, solid iced over for around 7 weeks. Only 4 fish that I was not aware we had.

Here is a decent read on pond stratification

http://ohioline.osu.edu/a-fact/0007.html

and a good read on winter and summer fish kills

http://ohioline.osu.edu/a-fact/0008.html

 

[CountryEscape]

You east coast ladies should be in for some really nice weather! It was 60 here in IL today, and supposed to be high 50's tomorrow and upper 40's all weekend, but the best part is sunshine! I can take the cold, just leave me the sunshine and I'm good to go.

Mailman, one thing to consider about having your pump on the bottom is if there is any line coming from it that may drain your pond if something where to go wrong. In other words, if you have your pump on the bottom, and that pump fed your filter, and your filter container got a hole in it. By the time you may realize it, your pond may be empty. Good thing about pumps on the bottom is that they move the waste to the filter, though. I have my pump in my 42" deep area (the deepest is 48") and then it is on top of a block, so another 6" higher. Still not very deep if it pumped all the rest of the water out, but at least something for the fish to survive in until I could help them out.

My pond iced over last weekend, in the same cold you easterners were talking about above. I had the fountain and waterfall going, and then my brother in law mentioned the pump being overworked if the lines tried to freeze (which I didn't think they would/could do with water running ... at 15 degrees anyhow), but then worried the ice in the filter container would block the weir, and caved in and shut it off. Well, from that experience, I learned that it takes the floating heater just 30 minutes to thaw out a nice area big enough to pull my pump through. And, I've since turned it all back on, with these warm temps. I will, however, winterize my pond this weekend, as I think next weekend the prediction is 20's and teens. Oh well, it IS January. My winterization will be the pump shooting straight up on one end, and the idea of wiring it to a crate is a great one, Sissy! That way I know it won't move or shoot water sideways.

Waterbug, are you saying that it's more harmful for the fish to have water at an even 33 degrees or so, and open area, than to let the water freeze over for period at a time? If that's the case, maybe I should rethink my winterization and remove the pump and drop the lines into the bottom, let the pond freeze, and once or so a week put the floating heater on the top and let it thaw it's way through the ice to release the gases. Would that be more beneficial in the long run? I never thought of that. I just figured a constant flow of oxygen and release of gases would be best.

Thanks for your pointers!

 

[CountryEscape]

Just read both of those articles, Addy. They were great, and feel I actually learned from them. Think I will stick with my original plan and keep the pump moving the water, and use the floating heater to open the surface, if anything goes wrong and the pond ices over from temporary lack of power. But, still plan to keep the fountain and waterfall running as long as possible, but don't want to push my limits and get caught with iced over waterfall and fountain again.

 

[sissy]

I was testing out that pump that I got and when the water gets low around it it does switch off and energy use is lower than my ones from harbor freight .I guess those pumps are pretty good at lowes for the price .I guess I can say the smartpond pumps work .

 

[Waterbug]

Waterbug, are you saying that it's more harmful for the fish to have water at an even 33 degrees or so, and open area, than to let the water freeze over for period at a time?

In many cases yes. I think keeping fish at 33F, 34F for long periods of time would probably be more dangerous than letting the pond ice over. Depends on the pond of course, and we're talking about borderline conditions that can go either way. My main point would be that the importance of gas exchange seems to be way over hyped. Gas exchange in summer is important but in winter almost everything is opposite. Nil bacteria function in winter, nil decomposition, fish metabolism way down, water holds a lot more O2, ammonia virtually non-toxic. Depends on many factors, but it seems like there's a knee jerk reaction that ponds must be kept open.

 

[addy1]

Just read both of those articles, Addy. They were great, and feel I actually learned from them. Think I will stick with my original plan and keep the pump moving the water, and use the floating heater to open the surface, if anything goes wrong and the pond ices over from temporary lack of power. But, still plan to keep the fountain and waterfall running as long as possible, but don't want to push my limits and get caught with iced over waterfall and fountain again.

I am just running an aerator, the fish swim, still eat every now and then, the water has been as low as 32, (surface). Your decision Country, I decided to keep the surface open, why take the chance. I watch the fish on the camera, they all seem just fine. Even in the 32 range they nibble now and then on the plants. swim a little.

The birds, critters love having water to drink too.

 

[fishin4cars]

One thing that I think should be considered as I have run into the problem in the past. I never run any pumps directly on the bottom at the deepest point any more. If for some weird reason the pump happens to start spraying water out of the pond it will completely empty it. If it is raised off the bottom the pump will run dry before it pumps out all the water.
Now I know you probably don't think this can happen for just a circulation pump. Well I had a raccoon/or cat that got tangled in a piece of leaf netting I had around the pond, it was wrapped in such a way that when the raccoon/cat got tangled it pulled on the pump cord and the water started spraying out of the pond. When I found it it had emptied about 1/2 of the water from the pond. considering this was the dead of winter it could have been a complete loss. Due to the fact that the pump stopped pumping once it rested on a plant shelf and started running dry it didn't empty the pond and I was able to save the fish. Just another input that you may want to consider.

 

[sissy]

yep that happened to me last winter and pond emptied to a foot of empty on one of the coldest nights and snowing and bitter cold winter .i had a hose and water supply in the basement and being that it was well water I was lucky .It was a ice dam that happened when the pump got knocked over so this year I wired the pump to the crate .I used coated electrical wire ,nice and stiff and easy to wrap around the pump .And what so far this winter a mild winter .