Looking for a new pump. Any ideas? 4000~5000gph, 30ft head height min

crsublette

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I currently have Aquascape - Tsurumi PN Pump 50PN2.25S (3PN)

I have my pump set at 20 inch depth covered in rocks and it stays submersed during winter as well.

If my power goes go out, the winters here only freeze the water to 8 inches last time I checked when my floating de-icer stopped working; It has been a very long time since my area has had anywhere close to sub-zero temperatures. Heh, the 8 inches was created due to my fountains when my floating deicers stopped working; these guys were just add layers on top of the ice. For this year, my fountains are gonna share my deicers GFI (ground fault interceptor) so that when the deicer screws up then my fountains will turn off.

I just don't have the space nor place for an above ground inline pump.

I need to have at least a 30 foot head height, the pump needs to be built so it can operate in cold water, and must be a submersible.

I am looking for a 4000~5000gph pump. The Tsurumi series works well for me but it is an electricity hog. From what I understand, the head height is what demands the power consumption so I really do not need it to go above 30 feet. I suppose 36 or 44 head height would be ok ... maybe depending on the watts.

Any ideas? :)
 
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The larger amperage is only drawn when the load demands it. If you use a pump to push water up 1 foot, you will draw much less power than using the same pump to push the water up 30 feet.

I don't think you're going to have much choice in the area of amperage being drawn. 30 feet is quite a distance to be pushing water straight up! I assume your pond is on the side of a very steep hill? Just to be clear, head height is how far *straight up* you are pumping the water over the altitude of the pump -- head has nothing to do with the overall length of your plumbing. For example, my pumps push water through 40 feet of pipe, but the head height is only 3 feet because the water comes out about 3 feet above where the pump sits in the water.

As long as the water does not freeze inside your pump, any pump will work in cold-water conditions. Keep in mind the actual water flow drops off very quickly as you approach the maximum head height, so your pump with a maximum head of 30 feet will probably pump very little water up to the 30' mark. If you find a pump rated for a head of 40 feet, it will push out a more significant flow when only raised to 30 feet. To pump so much water up that high, you are probably going to have to accept that it requires a LOT of power, and you will need either several smaller pumps, or one larger (and very expensive) pump.
 

addy1

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We bought a clear water pump from harbor freight for our stream. 39 dollars, 3/4 hp. OW I was looking at very very expensive pond pumps and a lot of power to get up the hill with water. The pipe length is 75 feet, the height change is over 20 feet. That pump handles a head pressure of 115 feet. We do only run it on a timer, it is not the primary pond pump. The pond pump has 8 feet of pipe and maybe a foot up in height.
 

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For what it's worth, the position of the pump in the pond has NO bearing on head height. Head is measured from the water level of the pond to the water exit of the hose or pipe. The pump does not have to lift water from the bottom of the pond to the surface, only from the surface up!
John
 

koiguy1969

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and 10' of horizontal plumbing is equal to 1' of vertical. so 20' of horizontal pipe or tube is equal to 2' of straight up pipe.
 

sissy

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I wish they would lower the price on some of the pumps for normal people .My neighbor paid 400 dollars for hers and in 2 years it was being repaired through the warranty than in her pond ,They finally gave her the option to get her money back or a new pump ,she chose money .I loaned her one of my harbor freight pumps and she is looking around .I had to buy another one for my pond because she is using my extra pump that I use in my stock tank and I had to use the other 940gph for my stock tank that i had in my pond .Have to love those neighbors huh lol
 

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But would that not change for the size of the pipe or hose going up .I was wondering that because I changed mine from 1 inch to 1 1/4 inch hose and the flow seemed to be a lot slower even though I went from 940 gph to a 2150 gph and had to adjust the out flow to the waterfall to less and more to the filter .I did not think it would be that much for just a quarter inch and still the same length hose.just wondering
 
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sissy - The flow would definitely change if you went with too small of pipe. My first pond came with a 3000gph pump plumbed with 3/4" sprinkler pipe. I didn't realize there was an issue until the original fitting broke, and I made a new fitting with 1.25" pipe... I got about double the output from my pump from that!

When you use a larger pipe, it takes longer for the pump to fill up the pipe, but once the pipe is filled, you should still have the same *volume* of water coming out. There may appear to be a difference because the water does not come squirting out. Think of water coming out of a garden hose... if you pinch the end of the hose, the water has to come out of a smaller hole, so it will squirt out to a further distance, but you still have the same volume of water coming out.

In your case, you fitted a larger pump and pipe to the same output - your filter and waterfall. Both of these have a wide opening that would not restrict the water flow, so the water should pour at at whatever rate the pump is pushing it. If your larger pump appears to be pushing less water, my inclination would be to consider the new pump inferior and return it. If anything, the larger pipe would create less restriction for your pump and allow *more* water to flow.
 
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1st we need to know how big your pond is

Like mentioned unless you are going 30ft straight up you do not need a pump that's rated like that. You only need to be concerned with your actual plumbing, if you have a 50 foot horizonal run going to a 3ft tall waterfall you only have 3-5ft of head pressure. You can decrease that head pressure by going with larger diameter pipe. Instead of using 1in go to 1.5in & if you do want 4-5K gallons of actual flow you might want to go with 2in or possibly 3 in pipe. Larger diameter like stated above might look like less water is coming out of the pump due to not having as much pressure but the pump will push more water. The pump sees less friction with the larger diameter pipe thus it will push more water.

You also can look at the pumps power curve. Many pumps will pull less power when they are running at a higher head pressure, just depends on the type of pump you go with.

You can also look at the following link, it lists some submersible & external pumps however most are rated for aquarium use. But you can plug in some numbers and get a idea what kind of flow you would get with a certain pump. The Sequence pumps are used in ponds just like the MAG line of pumps.... MAG's are internal, Sequence is external.
 

crsublette

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Omg addy, that is insane. I was wondering what kind of pump would take to carry water up that hill of yours. BTW, your "bio-habitat refuge" thing ya got going on there is just unbelievable and should be published!! Where are the parakeets? :)


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My understanding of "head height" is very rudimentary. I get the idea tho I think; 30ft head height means 30 feet is the maximum height it'll vertically push the water. Also, from what I understand, all of the 45-degree elbows and 90-degree elbows and smaller pipe diameter influence the head height demand. I did my best to use hose where ever possible but braided hose is not very flexible in tight spots. An irrigation buddy roughly figured the head height and rounded up to 30 feet; he helps build water towers and a variety of well and other irrigation projects so he knows his stuff.

From what I understand from ya'll, then my head height doesn't need to change and I just need more output flow.

Just really quick to tell what I am doing with it.

1) My water travels about 70 feet with a ~3 foot incline, meaning my small pond's border is a few feet lower than the base (not the height) of my waterfall. Waterfall height is a little over 5 foot tall. The water goes up into a big "bowl" boulder in 3 different spots in the center. Each spot is a different fountain on top of that boulder, each fountain is varying heights. Waterfall cascades another boulder down into the stream, ~3" deep (for now) and ~2 foot or more wide and ~50 foot long, that ends in my small pond (~9 foot diameter circle, ~450 gallons). Pump is ~20 inches down into the pond. Also, the pump supplies some circulation to a "cave" thing in the center of my pond under a big flagstone table.

2) I really want a bigger rush of water down the stream so that my vertically standing rocks in the stream would really get a nice splash around them. Also, I'm told this will help oxygenate the water.

3) Also, the pump is supplying water mixed with extra oxygen from a small compressor to a "cave" otherwise I am afraid it could be a dead spot without the circulation. Don't ask, lol, I made it so that the fish, whenever I get them, would have a place to hide when my farm cats come to look for them. My "pond" is pretty shallow, 10~13" deep. I also have a question about air compressors that I'll ask in another thread; my compressor is noticeablly loud and is really starting to irritate me when I am trying to relax on my porch . After a few drinks, it even scares me sometimes when it automatically turns on, heh.

The supply line is a 2" braided hose that feeds the 3/4" plumbing to the 3 fountains and 2" outlet to the stream (which I currently have restricted halfway with a ball valve) and a 1 1/2" braided hose feeding a 1" perforated hose, ~10 foot long, in the "caves".

I am really wanting to open my stream's ball valve all the way while maintaining the pressure to my boulder waterfalls and "cave".

Right now my pump is 3630gph, which will be my backup pump once I get a new one.

Would an extra 500~1000gph make a difference to achieve my hopes here or should I go higher?

Don't ask for a picture cause you're not gonna get it. :) It is still unfinished and I feel it's not up to ya'll's standard yet. Sheesh, most of the ponds I see here are quite impressive with all the vegetation and bogs. Mine doesn't have any snazzy bogs nor plants (/sigh, no plants yet that is). I'm just rock fountain stream "pond" love'n kind of guy right now (and yes I understand the disadvantages and maintenance rock involve so shoosh!!, heh).

I made a rookie mistake with my rock walls and going to rebuild it with waterfall foam to reduce the gappage. I took all the rock walls out and rebuilding it; progression is very slow. Unfortuantely, be'n a farmer, I am going to get quite busy, long days, starting first week of May until middle of July. So, I will have to live with a huge pile of rock on my porch since I don't want it on my grass, lol. :(

Still learning as I go, which is fine. I need the exercise involved in fixing my mistakes. :)
 

crsublette

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I don't want to bust the pump by restricting it. Don't know if I want to go higher than 5000gph.

Is it true that a 2" supply line maximum capacity is around 5000gph without restricting the pump ?? I read this on a website but I couldn't find any other sources to verify it.

What are the pump companies known to have very good and quiet 5000gph, at least, submersible pump with a 25~30 head height ??
 
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For the numbers you are talking about, you're not going to bust your pump by pushing 5000gph through a 2" pipe. As I said above, I ran a 3000gph pump through 3/4" line for years, and the pump still works fine.

Just because your pond is not finished, does not mean that pictures are not welcome! Every one of our ponds looked ugly during the construction phases, but without pictures to give us a clear idea of your setup, you may get the wrong advice and have to tear things apart and rebuild again later on. Pictures will tell us much more than a long description, and may show us things that you didn't mention but are actually important. For instance, I'm having trouble understanding how your pump can be 18" under water when you say your pond is only 10-13" deep? And honestly, I think this is going to be a huge issue for you during the Winter... With all the rocks and waterfalls and splashing water you are describing, I don't see how you can possibly leave the pumps running through the Winter as the water cascading down all those rocks is going to freeze everywhere. If your main pond is 9 feet in diameter and only a foot deep, it would be nearly impossible to keep the water heated due to the massive surface area to volume ratio... meaning that your pond is going to freeze up solid in the Winter. From what you have described, I see no possible way of keeping fish in this pond year-round...

Again going off your descriptions, but I do not understand why you have an air compressor feeding into the water flow? If you have a dead spot inside the cave, and you have run some pipe in there to pump in water, then you do not have a dead spot. As long as you are pumping fresh water into these calm spots, there will be plenty of oxygen in the water which was picked up by the pump from the rest of the pond.

It really sounds like you need to step back for a moment and get some advice before progressing any further, and that is going to require a lot of pictures or drawings of the details of your arrangement. I'm not trying to discourage you, but at this stage it is MUCH easier to try and correct any problems. Believe me, I know - I'm trying to plan out how to rebuild my own waterfall this year to correct some problems that came up, and I'm NOT looking forward to it.
 

crsublette

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Honestly, I never intended this rock water feature to be a pond. After I dug it as deep as I did, or shallow depending on your point of view, told myself, " heck, lets have a couple of fish and plants ". lol :)

I'm having trouble understanding how your pump can be 18" under water when you say your pond is only 10-13" deep?
Dug a hole only for the pump that was around 18" deep, wouldn't be able to see this due to all my rock. Deep enough for a good size sprinkiler valve box with holes around it. I set the submersible in the valve box. Also put netting around the valve box keeping anything out that may mess up the pump, but the rocks piled over it is breaking down the leaves and debris before it actually gets to the pump. Rocks piled over the pump has never gotten matted with debris and I didn't even put down a net during the fall last year; I still should have to keep the rest of the rock free from debris.


And honestly, I think this is going to be a huge issue for you during the Winter... With all the rocks and waterfalls and splashing water you are describing, I don't see how you can possibly leave the pumps running through the Winter as the water cascading down all those rocks is going to freeze everywhere. If your main pond is 9 feet in diameter and only a foot deep, it would be nearly impossible to keep the water heated due to the massive surface area to volume ratio... meaning that your pond is going to freeze up solid in the Winter. From what you have described, I see no possible way of keeping fish in this pond year-round...

I finished most of everything except still waiting on shipment for some fancy rock that I ordered from overseas.

Winter Tested already. :) We don't get cold at all like parts of Colorado, not even close. Our frost line is only around 4 inches, if that. We range from mild winters where lo-temps sometimes barely reach mid-20s and harsher winters where the hi-temps might be in teens for just a week. This winter we only had a couple few days of hi-temps in teens and the rest was hi-temps mid-to-low 30s, low-temps mid-to-low 20s. So when the temps got up to 37, it melted that 8" layer of ice that I mentioned above.

I kept everything running except I turned off the waterfall. I was concerned about ice breaking cracks in some of the waterfall rock. I kept the stream running and my rock spire fountains that is in the center of the pond on a flagstone table. Rock spires are solid rock columns 6 inches wide, varying height of 2' to 5', with 3/4" plumbing in center.

The rock spire fountains formed some awesome ice sculptures on the sides of them and a kool thin shiny ice dome in the mornings that would later melt when the sun came up. The stream, even on those days where hi-temps were in the teens, only had at most 1~4" of ice on each side. Stream never got close to forming any kind of dam. The stream's borders are actually a few inches higher. So I think the depth and width and volume of moving water prevented it from freezing due to our easy winters. We rarely get to subzero temps without wind.

I floated styrofoam to hopefully maintain some surface heat and put the floating de-icers where the stream entered the pond to circulate the heat from the two de-icers. Before my de-icers blew the GFI, the only ice formed on my pond was where the water was not moving much under the styrofoam and only got about 1" deep. The styrofoam is in segments so the water could still move. Moving water is slower to freeze. This is why airstones or small upward water jets are used during the winter, to keep the water moving.

I was keeping a close eye on it during the Winter. I was concerned when we had those few days in a row where the hi-temps were in the teens and I was suprised how very little changed. I was impressed that the de-icers and styrofoam worked so well. I was also pulling that warmer bottom water out for my stream and rock spires.


From what you have described, I see no possible way of keeping fish in this pond year-round...
I don't know. According to the testimonials I've read, goldfish like comets have been known to survive in unbelievable cold temperatures and under thick ice in shallow waters.

Again going off your descriptions, but I do not understand why you have an air compressor feeding into the water flow? If you have a dead spot inside the cave, and you have run some pipe in there to pump in water, then you do not have a dead spot. As long as you are pumping fresh water into these calm spots, there will be plenty of oxygen in the water which was picked up by the pump from the rest of the pond.
Nah, the air compressor only pushes air into the hoses that only go into the cave. Probably overkill. I am told an air compressor is useful in ponds eventually at some point so figure I would have one on hand to use it somewhere if I need it. Don't know, if actually do get sub-zero winter, then I will hook it up to an air stone for the pond or something.



It really sounds like you need to step back for a moment and get some advice before progressing any further, and that is going to require a lot of pictures or drawings of the details of your arrangement. I'm not trying to discourage you, but at this stage it is MUCH easier to try and correct any problems. Believe me, I know - I'm trying to plan out how to rebuild my own waterfall this year to correct some problems that came up, and I'm NOT looking forward to it.
Finished everything back in November.

Just a couple of days ago took my pond's rock walls out so I can rebuild it but with waterfall foam so to fill in the cracks. 9x9 diameter circle, 10~13" deep, is a pretty small pond, more like a big water feature, heh.

Don't get me wrong, but there is just alot of common sense to me involved in building a basic water feature. Make sure your hills are packed solid, construction underneath is solid, and that your borders for the streams and water reservoir are high and packed. My build is very basic just with alot of fancy rock. It is nothign fantastic like Addy's replication of just something awesome.

The water chemistry is what is get'n me such as how small pond's surface area creates extra volatility for fish and that all the muck in my pond rock walls can create a potential problem if not maintained or corrected with some sort of filler.


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Grr, mainly look'n for a good pump now.
 

addy1

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Here is a spreadsheet I saved last year. It goes through a bunch of different pumps and what they can do. I use evolution series pumps, no way could they handle our head pressure for the stream, but work great for the pond.

http://www.webbsonline.com/pond-pumps.html?gclid=CPaIxaaI3agCFZQbKgod4XTxBw#laguna

Your pond sounds really neat, do share pictures when you want to.

The only thing that would concerns me, reading your description, is having a submersible pump under a box, covered with rocks. I don't use submersible, but have seen a bunch of posts about submersible pumps getting clogged and needing cleaning. Just make sure you can get to it if you need to clean the intakes. Once you have plants and fish you will have muck that might clog up the pump.
 
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If you are looking at 5000 gph at 30 ft head you really should consider a external pump. I would hate to see the electric bill on a internal pump that can push that much water at 30ft of head....... probably a few thousand watts

Even external it's still going to pull a bit of juice. My performance pro 1/3 HP pumps suck 400-500w at the head they are running at

2in pipe can take more flow then that, it just needs a very strong pump to be able to push that much water through it. Going 30ft up you might want to consider going with 3in pipe to help reduce head pressure as much as you can
 

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